Ship Suggestions/Changes - Narn

[Everyman]

While I realize that not everyone will agree, I am going to start a thread for each race with which I have familiarity (so no Abbai or Drakh from me) with various suggestions that I have to better balance the ships. Feel free to comment, add your own suggestions, ask me to explain a suggestion or disagree in the thread.

Here are my Narn suggested changes:

Ka’Toc / Ka’Tan: Increase the turns to 2/45°

Rongoth / Rothan: Increase Damage to 30

Thentus: Add the Agile trait; Increase Damage to 26

G’Quan: Increase Damage to 60; Reduce Energy Mine to AD 4 and make it slow loading

G’Lan: Increase Damage to 60

G’Tal: Increase Damage to 65; Add Interceptors 1

Bin’Tak: Increase Damage to 90; Increase Frazi to 5; Increase Heavy Laser range to 30; Increase Command bonus to 2; Add Interceptors 1

G’Quonth: Increase Damage to 65

G’Vrahn: Decrease number of Frazi to 3; Remove Command trait

 

[Tzarevitch]

I've posted some of these before but I'll have a whirl again.

G'Vrahn - Remove fighters and command trait.
Bin'Tak - Add slow loading to e-mines, add interceptors 1.

G'Quan - Increase beam to 5D minimum. 6D makes more sense. Change e-mines to slow loading.
G'Tal - Increase beam to 6D minimum. Add interceptors 1. Anti-fighter 2.
G'Lan - Delete Medium Laser (it is redundant). Increase Mag Gun to 5D. Remove anti-fighter.
G'Quonth - Beam remains 4D, e-mines drop to 4D and retain slow-loading, ion torms drop to 4D. Remove interceptors and antifighter. Re-classify as Battle level.

T'Loth - Increase forward pulse cannon to range 12. Reclassify as heavy pulse.
G'Sten - Sucks. Not sure what to do with it.

Ka'Tan - Replace e-mine with 2d pulsar mine.
Rothan/Rongoth - Ugly as hell, they also suck. No interest in fixing them
T'Rakk - Increase range on forward pulse to 10. Reclassify as medium pulse.

Gorith - Speed 12.

Tzarevitch.

 

[Rawwar]

Ka’Toc / Ka’Tan: Increase the turns to 2/45°

Potentially quite a big change as it gives the Narn more Manoeuvrability .

Rongoth / Rothan: Increase Damage to 30

Probably do little or nothing due to the crit system, plus the hull's not great either. The small stuff needs the speed/Manoeuvrability to draw a bead or it's useless. Though to be fair that can be said for any level off ship.

Thentus: Add the Agile trait; Increase Damage to 26

Dunno here? Agile might do the trick it would make a big difference, add the DP's to that & it might be too much.

G’Quan: Increase Damage to 60; Reduce Energy Mine to AD 4 and make it slow loading

Another ship that the DP's won't help, I'm not even bothered over the E Mine because it's a bit of a side show. It needs help to kick some proper butt.

G’Lan: Increase Damage to 60

As above, took one recently the extra DP's would've done nothing

G’Tal: Increase Damage to 65; Add Interceptors 1

DP's said it before. Interceptors, now you're talking but is it Narn enough for the purists? I like it though.

Bin’Tak: Increase Damage to 90; Increase Frazi to 5; Increase Heavy Laser range to 30; Increase Command bonus to 2; Add Interceptors 1

This ship cries out for interceptors. It could probably do with a SL E Mine & take the G'Vrahn's E Mine. Damage not sure about, Nothing personal just don't know.

G’Quonth: Increase Damage to 65

As above, pointless give me interceptors any day.

G’Vrahn: Decrease number of Frazi to 3; Remove Command trait

I'd go for this if it meant the Bin Tak got an upgrade because the Bin Tak model is just sex on a stick.

I hope I've not been too blunt but I've tried to say it as I see it, so no offense intended.

 

[Silvereye]

Been reading the About the Narn thread as well. I'll post some comments here so they don't get lost in the argument about vampires.

Mainly, I'd up the range of either the Ion cannons OR Pulse cannons at the top end of the fleet a bit (12"?) to actually make them into secondary weapons. Possibly losing an AD or two to compensate

Ka’Toc / Ka’Tan: Increase the turns to 2/45°
Rongoth / Rothan: Increase Damage to 30
Thentus: Add the Agile trait; Increase Damage to 26

I'd be very wary about changing the Narn Skirmish ships, as they are all nicely different and differently useful. For the most part they are competent at what they do.

G’Quan: Increase Damage to 60; Reduce Energy Mine to AD 4 and make it slow loading

Definitely needs a bit more gun here and there. I'd go the other way with the e-mine and up the AD to 8 and leave it one-shot. It'll make it a scary prospect for most Patrol or Skirmish vessels to be on the receiving end of.

G’Lan: Increase Damage to 60
G’Tal: Increase Damage to 65; Add Interceptors 1

Ion cannon/Pulse cannon upgrades.

Bin’Tak: Increase Damage to 90; Increase Frazi to 5; Increase Heavy Laser range to 30; Increase Command bonus to 2; Add Interceptors 1

The Bin'Tak is a good ship as it stands. I like the look of the changes, but I'm not sure it could get away with them.

G’Quonth: Increase Damage to 65

It's a jumped up G'Quan, I'd follow the previous G'Quan upgrades maybe adding a single Interceptor.

G’Vrahn: Decrease number of Frazi to 3; Remove Command trait

I'd probably consider reducing the interceptors to 3 as well.

Ka'Bin'Tak, again probably shouldn't be upgraded. But I'd make the Jump Engine advanced.

 

[Triggy]

My calls (if I could do everything I wanted):

Bin'Tak - Increase Damage/Crew by 20.
G'Vrahn - Remove Interceptors, make Emines One Shot.
G'Quonth - Increase Damage/Crew by 15, Laser Cannon AD by 2
G'Quan/G'Tal/G'Lan - Increase Damage/Crew by 10, Laser Cannon AD by 1
G'Sten/G'Karith - Hull 6
Rongoth/Rothan - Hull 6

Everything else I'm fairly happy with.

 

[Enalut]

Global:

Change Light Ion Cannons to Ion Cannons on Battle Level and Above Ships: 12" TL
Change Light Pulse Cannons to Pulse Cannons: 8" range and AP

Ka Bin Tak:

Increase Command to +3
Add Fleet Carrier
Make all Light Ion Cannons Ion Cannons and Increase Range to 12" TL (andd 2 AD to each Arc)
Pulse Cannons--Reduce Range to 8" and make AP (reduce by 2 AD in Each Arc)

G'Vrahn:
Reduce Command to +1
Reduce Fighters to 4
Reduce Interceptors to 2
Reduce Emine Range to 30"
Make all secondaries 8 AD and EITHER Make Ion cannons Range 12" TL OR make Pulse Lasers *" Range with AP
Possible Suggestion: Make Emine 8AD OS and


Bin'Tak
Add 10 to Damage and Crew
Increase Command to +2 Increase Fighters to 6
Add Carrier 2
Add Fleet Carrier

Add 2 Ion cannons to Each arc and increase their range to 12"
Make All Pulse cannons AP

G'Quan and Variants
Add 5 to Hull and Crew
Make Emine 8AD but leave OS
Make Ion Cannons 12" TL
Make Pulse Cannons 8" AP
Leave Lasers alone

Var Nic:
Leave Main Beam as is:
But change weapons to:
F:
Replace the Heavy Pulse Cannon and Light Ion Cannon: with Ion Cannons 10AD 12" TL

G'Kaith/G'Sten:
Hull 6
Leave the AD the same ont eh weapons, but make them all light Pulse weaposn with a 8" range vanila dice
(G'Sten--relable Heavy Pulse Cannon Ion Cannon and Leave stats unchanged)

T'Loth:
Give it 2 Breaching Pods in addition to its Fighters (reduce to Shuttles 2)
Add Carrier 2
Make Heavy Pulse Cannon 8 AD 15" Range (maybe 12") and leave AP/DD

T'Rann
Add 2 Troops

K'Tan/KToc
Make Hull 6

Thentus:
Leave

Rongoth:

Leave Heavy Pulse Cannon the same but relable it Ion Cannon
Make all Light Pulse Cannons Light Ion Cannons 8" range TL

And Either:
Give it a total of 10 Frazi
Make it Carrier 4

Or leave the smae configuration and give it the
Heavy Pulse Cannon 6 AD 15" (maybe 4AD) Range (maybe 12") and leave AP/DD
from th T'Loth

Frazi:
Make Hull 6

Goriath:
Make Dogfight +2

Edit:

The Idea being to keep the Narn as Lose in Brwalers but to permit then some increased flexibility and to better conform them to FLuff cannon in that they were flying bricks (despite plot requirments in the show that had them constantly going pop goes the G'Quan).

 

[No. 1 Bear]

I agree with triggys comments about damage and definately about the gsten and gkarith! However i would also like to see one large bank of secondaries rather than 2 seperate or maybe make it so the tertiary weapons could possible act a interceptors, actually thats really quite cool.

 

[Target]

Ka Tan gets ion torps instead of e-mines

 

[Triggy]

Given that the Ka'Tan is a variant of the Ka'Toc, the E-mines being better or not is not a big deal. There are some fleets where E-mines are awesome (horde or fighter-heavy fleets) and it is here where the Ka'Tan shines.

 

[Target]

I'd rather have torps but then im an e-mine hater.
I'd make nearly all of them OS but able to cause crits & not wipe out dodge. There is middle ground with a modifer to dodge. I've thought hitting multiple targets is a huge bonus anyway.
I don't really like how this game really rips into fighters to a point they are pretty much useless.
Narn have reasonable fighters & anti fighter plus enough secondary weapoms to deal with most fighters.
The problem with the Frazi & Gorith is the same of most fighters, they are just way to slow compared to ships.
It really annoys me to see ships launch fighters & speed away from them eg Sky Serpent & Kotha. It doesn't make any sense at all. The game is so much better with faster fighters.
Our Narn players uses Goriths as interceptors, it makes a big difference to Narn. Stops a whole heap of crits.
A bit of topic Oops!

 

[Foxmeister]

Given that the Ka'Tan is a variant of the Ka'Toc, the E-mines being better or not is not a big deal. There are some fleets where E-mines are awesome (horde or fighter-heavy fleets) and it is here where the Ka'Tan shines.

With the e-mines being O/S, and the Ka'Tan being quite easy to kill, I find that is rarely the case.

I should start a campaign for no more O/S e-mines!

Regards,

Dave

 

[Rawwar]

With the e-mines being O/S, and the Ka'Tan being quite easy to kill, I find that is rarely the case.

I should start a campaign for no more O/S e-mines! Wink

Regards,

Dave

I'll sign up to that.

Get rid of them all & either give us SL 1s or a decent trait on our othes guns.

What have you gone & started? :twisted:

 

[Triggy]

I actually find Narn Emines really useful, particularly in area denial rather than actually firing them. Also, the damage they do may not be huge but typically a ship firing them can knock off 20% off two ships of the same PL as the firing ship before either are in range of their other guns. This is actually quite a big deal.

 

[Foxmeister]

I know that the G'Quan is almost certain to see some loving in P&P, but my big concern here is that the playtesters are going to lose sight of the goal which is to make the G'Quan a real choice for Narn players, rather than something we'd just wish we could take. If the updates in P&P don't achieve this goal, they've failed.

In my opinion, just upping the beam an AD and adding some damage/crew whilst making the G'Quan "better" still doesn't make it good enough to consider over a Var'Nic/Dag'Kar combo which would still deliver far more firepower and be more resilient to criticals. A SL e-mine would go a long way to assuaging that.

Of course, that still doesn't fix my real bugbear, which is the lack of a F-arc beam, but there's been no real indications as yet from playtester comments that this is actually being considered (when it should be!)

I do understand that for the most part, doing as little as is required is going to have far less impact on "balance", and going over the top is probably just making things worse but not going far enough is almost as bad would be a missed opportunity, and that would be very sad indeed.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Foxmeister]

I actually find Narn Emines really useful, particularly in area denial rather than actually firing them. Also, the damage they do may not be huge but typically a ship firing them can knock off 20% off two ships of the same PL as the firing ship before either are in range of their other guns. This is actually quite a big deal.

Yes, they do change the way your opponent plays the game even when they are not fired, but in my experience, all that tends to happen is that players don't form squadrons when they know they are facing e-mines, and don't launch fighters until the e-mines have either been used up or out of arc. The only ship this doesn't apply to is the G'Karith, as that can fire its e-mines every turn anyway, and they are practically useless against hull 6 opposition.

Against a good player, getting more than one ship under a template is actually quite rare, so as to render the area effect rather a moot point much of the time. It's then very much a case of use them before you lose them.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Rawwar]

Yes, they do change the way your opponent plays the game even when they are not fired, but in my experience, all that tends to happen is that players don't form squadrons when they know they are facing e-mines, and don't launch fighters until the e-mines have either been used up or out of arc. The only ship this doesn't apply to is the G'Karith, as that can fire its e-mines every turn anyway, and they are practically useless against hull 6 opposition.

Against a good player, getting more than one ship under a template is actually quite rare, so as to render the area effect rather a moot point

My experience is almost exactly the same as the above for what it's worth.

 

[Tzarevitch]

I actually find Narn Emines really useful, particularly in area denial rather than actually firing them. Also, the damage they do may not be huge but typically a ship firing them can knock off 20% off two ships of the same PL as the firing ship before either are in range of their other guns. This is actually quite a big deal.

I agree almost wholeheartedly. But I wouldn't say ships of the same PL. E-mines perform very well against patrol, skirmish and most raid level ships. Due to high hull and hp most battle level ships don't care about e-mines. To them e-mines are soft damage that is easy to absorb. It is far easier for a Ka'Bin'Tak for example to take 10 pts of e-mine damage that can't crit than it is for it to take 5 points of critical damage + potential paralyzing special effects.

Tzarevitch

 

[Foxmeister]

I agree almost wholeheartedly. But I wouldn't say ships of the same PL. E-mines perform very well against patrol, skirmish and most raid level ships.

Some e-mines perform well - and those that do are not O/S.

The Dag'Kar, G'Vrahn, and the Ka'Bin'Tak have decent usable e-mines that can certainly hurt small ships, and over time even keep the larger ships "honest". The G'Kariths e-mine serves as a useful deterrent against fighters, and for reducing stealth, but otherwise isn't of great use.

However, the Ka'Tan doesn't have enough dice to make it worthwhile and being O/S makes it particularly unattractive against the F arc mag gun of the Ka'Toc. Similarly the G'Quan's e-mine, whilst it can lay down some hurt, can't do that much and after it's gone the G'Quan is inferior when compared to all of its variants.

Others mileage may well vary, but for the most part my opponents know how to restrict the impact of e-mines and play accordingly.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Rawwar]

Some e-mines perform well - and those that do are not O/S.

The Dag'Kar, G'Vrahn, and the Ka'Bin'Tak have decent usable e-mines that can certainly hurt small ships, and over time even keep the larger ships "honest". The G'Kariths e-mine serves as a useful deterrent against fighters, and for reducing stealth, but otherwise isn't of great use.

However, the Ka'Tan doesn't have enough dice to make it worthwhile and being O/S makes it particularly unattractive against the F arc mag gun of the Ka'Toc. Similarly the G'Quan's e-mine, whilst it can lay down some hurt, can't do that much and after it's gone the G'Quan is inferior when compared to all of its variants.

Others mileage may well vary, but for the most part my opponents know how to restrict the impact of e-mines and play accordingly.

Regards,

Dave

I'm forced to warn you that you're in grave danger of making sense & looking like you actually play Narn. :idea:

 

[No. 1 Bear]

I would love to see the following happen, the g quans emine become SL, and have a 1AD increase to the mag gun. This with a little damage score tweaking would make it a fine and respectable choice, alongside the other battle level choices.

The G'kartih i find lacking. An extra point of hull, less emines but make many banks of them so 4 ad split into 4 banks. This would make this a respectable choice. Quite plainly any other decent raid choice would kick its but.