Ship Design Philosophy

[Condottiere]

Inspiration: ASTEROIDS Size Comparison

These are the sizes of some asteroids compared to New York City.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSkPNMjRRio

 

[Condottiere]

Spaceships: Armaments and Smaller (Ground Vehicle) Weapons

. Gauss Cannon
.. technological level
... twelve
.. range
... let's say closeish
.. tonnage
... one
.. damage
... one dice
.. cost
... hundred kay bux
.. ammunition
... magazine
.... two hundred slugs
.... cost
..... one kay bux
... reloading
.... provision could be made for the hopper to get fed from an internal magazine
.. (ground) effect traits
... armour piercing
.... ten
... automatic
.... three

 

[locarno24]

Spaceships: Armaments and Smaller (Ground Vehicle) Weapons

. Gauss Cannon
.. technological level
... twelve
.. range
... let's say closeish
.. tonnage
... one
.. damage
... one dice
.. cost
... hundred kay bux
.. ammunition
... magazine
.... hundred slugs
.... cost
..... one kay bux
... reloading
.... provision could be made for the hopper to get fed from an internal magazine
.. (ground) effect traits
... armour piercing
.... ten
... automatic
.... three

So basically the Gauss Cannon from CSC?

I'd say a firm 'no'.

Mounting a light weapon requires Cr1000, so this will cost Cr101,000 - fine, albeit with a slight cost increase
2km is close range on spacecraft scale - fine
1DD damage in personal scale is 1D damage on ship scale - fine


The problem is that the Roci's turrets are primarily point defence weapons; the gauss cannon won't have the ability to engage incoming missiles, and if it's given that ability it really, really needs a cost increase. For that matter it lacks the Track trait like the Orbital Defence Cannon, meaning in theory you'll have to deal with a serious speed-of-target DM when engaging a ship in a different orbital path. You would get the ground-weapon-targeting-spacecraft bonus, but that's only DM+2.

 

[Condottiere]

It's within the rules, and within my guidelines to limit a firmpoint to one tonne; though combining two opens that up, since you can slot a five tonne barbette on them.

As for range, for all intents and purposes there's no gravity nor atmosphere in space, so the effective range should be longer that two kilometres.

All hell breaks loose, once the Dungeon Master has determined that combat is now in dogfight mode.

 

[locarno24]

Agreed. My concern - sorry if I'm not being clear - is that the PDC's main job is dealing with missiles - with a secondary roll of killing small craft and providing extra punch in CQB (which is basically dogfighting in Traveller terms).

A Gauss Cannon from Central Supply Catalogue does not have the ability to be used in a Point Defence reaction, so using it as a PDC leaves it unable to do one of the key in-universe jobs of the weapon.

Alternatively if you declare it to be able to do so, it should go up significantly in cost, volume, or both.

I agree on an extended range, but even if you double, triple or even quadruple a 2km range, you're still inside the 10km limit for Close range, so just say it can be used at close range and leave it at that. It's unlikely to have the muzzle velocity to aim accurately at something further away that's accelerating at a meaningful number of gravities.


https://expanse.fandom.com/wiki/PDC

 

[Condottiere]

I agree that games and their systems need to be balanced, and I suspect I share your concern as to the exploitative nature, or at least it's possibility, of weapon systems that I suspect no one ever thought could be viable in such applications.

I disagree as to the point defence aspect of an automaticized weapon, what it needs is to be linked up to the appropriate fire control and sensor array.

The Roscinante is a pretty mild demonstration, especially once you scale it up to Jupiter class battlestars.

I was considering linking up eight Fusion Guns Man Portables together on a firmpoint, and creating a pom pom.

 

[Condottiere]

Spaceships: Armaments and Smaller (Ground Vehicle) Weapons

. Heavy Automatic Cannon
.. technological level
... six
.. range
... let's say adjacentish
.. tonnage
... one
.. damage
... one dice
.. cost
... forty five kay bux
.. ammunition
... magazine
.... hundred rounds
.... cost
..... two kay bux
... reloading
.... provision could be made for the hopper to get fed from an internal magazine
.. (ground) effect traits
... automatic
.... three

 

[Sigtrygg]

Rapid fire autocannon, mass drivers, and VRF gauss guns have been capable of point defence ever since LBB4 and Striker.

TL 8 Rapid fire radar directed auto-cannons provide most point defense.

TL10 The premier point defense weapon becomes the VRF gauss gun, with much medium range work done by beam and pulse
gatling lasers.

If MgT doesn't allow for this guess which one is wrong...

 

[locarno24]

I agree that games and their systems need to be balanced, and I suspect I share your concern as to the exploitative nature, or at least it's possibility, of weapon systems that I suspect no one ever thought could be viable in such applications.

I disagree as to the point defence aspect of an automaticized weapon, what it needs is to be linked up to the appropriate fire control and sensor array.

The Roscinante is a pretty mild demonstration, especially once you scale it up to Jupiter class battlestars.

It's not just sensors and fire control, though; it's also the nature of the weapon mount and the weapon itself. A fair proportion of starship weapons cannot be used for point defence, despite having the accuracy to engage a starship target at Very Long Range - a Particle Beam has an effective* range of 50,000km but unlike a laser a standard particle barbette either can't slew fast enough or cycle fast enough to engage a smaller missile at a few tens or hundreds of km, whose 'angular size' as seen from the ship is probably about the same.

It's also worth noting that the CSC gauss cannon is firing comparatively small solid slugs; Battlestar Galactica generates its awesome flak barricades not just because of the sheer number of weapon mounts but also because those mass drivers are throwing out fragmentation shells designed to produce overlapping detonation patterns.



* for a given value of effective! - there is a DM-4 at Very Long Range.

If MgT doesn't allow for this guess which one is wrong...

The one not being used by the GM.

I'm not saying this is wrong so much as it's an option which is missing. But I also think it's not an option which should be free.

The only rules we have about normal scale weapons on a starship are Spacecraft Damage Scale (P158, Core Rulebook) and Smaller Weapons (P32, High Guard), neither of which mention Point Defence.
Meanwhile the Point Defence Reaction explicitely mentions "turret-mounted laser (beam or pulse)", and High Guard does not expand the list of weapons which can perform this reaction (for that matter it specifically says Point Defence Batteries are "short-ranged laser turrets").

I have no absolute problem with any given rapid-firing weapon system with a decent range being available in a configuration which can be used for point defence.
But if the weapon does not, in its standard configuration, have at least the Track trait when used in ground combat, I think that asking it in space combat to engage a 10-15G missile is a bit of an ask, and therefore it should need something else - in terms of a 'fast-tracking' mount or whatever, and hence increased volume and/or cost.

 

[Jeraa]

The Vehicle Handbook has an anti-missile system on page 49. It includes a minigun and gauss version, and also doesn't indicate that it only applies against ground-scale missiles. In theory, it applies against spacecraft scale missiles as well. At the very least, it shows that more than lasers can be used.

 

[Condottiere]

If we follow Traveller spacecraft design sequence, having a powered turret is not really a problem.

 

[locarno24]

The Vehicle Handbook has an anti-missile system on page 49. It includes a minigun and gauss version, and also doesn't indicate that it only applies against ground-scale missiles. In theory, it applies against spacecraft scale missiles as well. At the very least, it shows that more than lasers can be used.

Agreed. And, as I said, I've no problem with a non-laser weapon doing point defence. However, a 'stock' weapon can't without an appropriate mounting.

As an example; the Gauss Anti-Missile System is not the same as, say, a Gauss Rifle.
It has the same basic technology (magnetic coil fling bullet at target), but a Gauss AMS mount is 3D damage (compared to the 4D of a rifle), so it's less powerful despite occupying 3 spaces, whilst a pair of gauss rifles (to get the same effective Auto score of 6), even in a powered turret with a 360' traverse, would only require 2 spaces despite being more powerful guns.

The difference in size is associated with a sufficiently fast-tracking mount to allow it to target grenades and missiles.

If we follow Traveller spacecraft design sequence, having a powered turret is not really a problem.

Not if you set aside the dTons and MCr for it, but if it's called a 1 dTon/Cr100,000 weapon, that hasn't been done.

If you're just using the Smaller Weapons rule, then you're essentially taking a 1 Tonne Gauss Cannon, and attaching it to a ship for a 1 dTon volume. Fine for a weapon to provide local coverage whilst on the ground, a la star wars pop-out blasters on the Falcon or Black One.

It's in a "small pop-up turret" but if you want it to have any properties it wouldn't have had if it was an equivalent weapon mount on a ground vehicle, there should be more volume or cost associated; you can fit a gauss cannon on an APC but the standard weapon can't engage missiles - and for that matter without Track can't even engage aircraft very well.

You can produce a gauss cannon which can (which is what the Gauss AMS is) but you'd need a turret mount able to do so, which would need some space in addition to the 1 Tonne/1dTon for the gun itself.

 

[Condottiere]

Spaceships: Armaments and Smaller (Ground Vehicle) Weapons

. Light Automatic Cannon
.. technological level
... seven [note one]
.. range
... let's say adjacentish
.. tonnage
... 225 kilogrammes [note one]
.. damage
... six dice divided by ten
.. cost
... eleven kay bux [note two]
.. ammunition
... magazine
.... five hundred rounds
.... cost
..... one kay bux [note two]
... reloading
.... provision could be made for the hopper to get fed from an internal magazine
.. (ground) effect traits
... automatic
.... three

Notes
one default technological level six, advanced size reduction; arguably long range or accuracy at technological level nine.
two longer range or accuracy might actually be more dependent on ammunition, though the quality of the barrel would be a factor.

 

[Condottiere]

Spaceships: Armaments and Smaller (Ground Vehicle) Weapons

. Vulcan machine gun
.. technological level
... eight [note one]
.. range
... let's say closeish
.. tonnage
... 225 kilogrammes [note one]
.. damage
... four dice divided by ten
.. cost
... thirteen point two kay bux [note two]
.. ammunition
... magazine
.... one thousand rounds
.... cost
..... one and three eights kay bux [note two]
... reloading
.... provision could be made for the hopper to get fed from an internal magazine
.. (ground) effect traits
... automatic
.... six

Notes
one default technological level seven, advanced size reduction; arguably long range or accuracy at technological level ten.
two longer range or accuracy might actually be more dependent on ammunition, though the quality of the barrel would be a factor.

 

[Condottiere]

Spaceships: Armaments and Sandcasters

I think that sandcasters have tremendous potential to be a weapons delivery system for a great range of payloads.

Unfortunately, there are not enough details to figure out how they function, and the actual performance: it's possible that the range is close.

Also, you used to be able to sandblast armour plating and damage spacecraft, well, pebblicize.

I do understand how mortars work.

 

[Condottiere]

Spaceships: Armaments and Smaller (Ground Vehicle) Weapons

Supposedly a one hundred and twenty millimetre variant, though an Israeli one hundred and sixty millimetre is listed at just under a quarter of a tonne. It could be breech loaded.

In theory, a technological level four twenty four centimetre trench mortar would weigh under a tonne, with an eighty plus kilogramme shell.

. Support Mortar
.. technological level
... eight [note one]
.. range
... let's say closeish
.. tonnage
... 225 kilogrammes [note one]
.. damage
... nine dice divided by ten
.. cost
... twelve point one kay bux [note two]
.. ammunition
... magazine
.... one round
.... cost
..... one hundred bux [note two]
... reloading
.... provision could be made for the hopper to get fed from an internal magazine
.. (ground) effect traits
... artillery
... blast
.... six

Notes
one default technological level seven, advanced size reduction; arguably long range or accuracy at technological level ten.
two longer range or accuracy might actually be more dependent on ammunition, though the quality of the barrel would be a factor.

 

[Condottiere]

Spaceships: Armaments and Smaller (Ground Vehicle) Weapons

Normally I'd buck a quarter tonne weapon system up a technological level, and shrink it; however, multiple missile or rocket launchers can vary in mass by simple addition and subtraction.

. Tactical Missile Launcher
.. type
... anti aircraft
.. technological level
... ten
.. range
... definitely closeish
.. tonnage
... one tonne [note one]
.. damage
... eight dice divided by ten
.. cost
... sixty four kay bux [note one]
.. ammunition
... magazine
.... sixteen tubes
.... cost
..... thirty two kay bux [note one]
... reloading
.... provision could be made for the launcher to get fed from an internal magazine, but this seems external
.. (ground) effect traits
... scope
... smart
... track

Notes
one four times a quarter tonne, and four times the cost.

 

[Condottiere]

Spaceships: Armaments and Smaller (Ground Vehicle) Weapons

Normally I'd buck a quarter tonne weapon system up a technological level, and shrink it; however, multiple missile or rocket launchers can vary in mass by simple addition and subtraction.

. Bombardment Rocket Launcher
.. type
... would assume area effect
.. technological level
... six
.. range
... mostly closeish
.. tonnage
... one tonne [note one]
.. damage
... five dice divided by ten
.. cost
... fifteen kay bux [note one]
.. ammunition
... magazine
.... six tubes
.... cost
..... four kay bux [note one]
... reloading
.... provision could be made for the launcher to get fed from an internal magazine, but this seems external
.. (ground) effect traits
... automatic
.... three
... blast
.... fifteen

Notes
one half two tonnes tonnes, and half the cost.

 

[Condottiere]

Spaceships: Armaments and Smaller (Ground Vehicle) Weapons

Normally I'd buck a quarter tonne weapon system up a technological level, and shrink it; however, multiple missile or rocket launchers can vary in mass by simple addition and subtraction.

. Heavy Rocket Pod
.. type
... would assume area effect
.. technological level
... six
.. range
... maybe closeish
.. tonnage
... one tonne [note one]
.. damage
... six dice divided by ten
.. cost
... twenty four kay bux [note one]
.. ammunition
... magazine
.... twelve tubes
.... cost
..... twelve kay bux [note one]
... reloading
.... provision could be made for the launcher to get fed from an internal magazine, but this seems external
.. (ground) effect traits
... automatic
.... three
... blast
.... ten

Notes
one double half tonne, and double the cost.

 

[Condottiere]

Spaceships: Armaments and Smaller (Ground Vehicle) Weapons

Normally I'd buck a quarter tonne weapon system up a technological level, and shrink it; however, multiple missile or rocket launchers can vary in mass by simple addition and subtraction.

. Rocket Pod
.. type
... would assume area effect
.. technological level
... six
.. range
... could be closeish, especially if range is adjacent next round, indicating target and targetter are closing
.. tonnage
... one tonne [note one]
.. damage
... four dice divided by ten
.. cost
... thirty two kay bux [note one]
.. ammunition
... magazine
.... seventy two tubes
.... cost
..... thirty two kay bux [note one]
... reloading
.... provision could be made for the launcher to get fed from an internal magazine, but this seems external
.. (ground) effect traits
... automatic
.... three
... blast
.... five

Notes
one quadruple quarter tonne, and quadruple the cost.