Ship Design Philosophy

[Condottiere]

The current edition has three primary changes:

1. Smallcraft weapon systems have drastically curtailed ranges.

2. Time speeds up if you can get ships in close proximity.

3. The larger the ship, the more it manoeuvres like a pregnant sow.

 

[Sigtrygg]

The current edition has three primary changes:

1. Smallcraft weapon systems have drastically curtailed ranges.

Only if you use fixed mounts - use a turret or barbette and get normal range, or use missiles or torpedoes.

2. Time speeds up if you can get ships in close proximity.

Which just means capital ship turrets and point defence systems can fire more often at the smallcraft.

3. The larger the ship, the more it manoeuvres like a pregnant sow.

Nope, big ships have big engines and are just as fast - in a newtonian movement system at any rate. The dogfighting rules are pure cinematic tosh and have no place in the OTU.
Fighters can not bank and turn is space, nor pull handbrake turns. Now I will accept that smallcraft would be able to spin and pivot about their centre of mass much faster than a capital ship could, but the image of fighters swarming around a lumbering capital ship is just plain wrong for the OTU.

That said there are plenty of people who want science fantasy fighters in their ATUs, and if that is what they want and enjoy then there is nothing wrong in that. But if you are going to postulate stuff for the OTU you have to be governed by the 'physics' the setting has established - and there are aspects of the MGT ship combat rules that are probably the second worst set of rules for OTU ship combat, MegaTraveller wins that particular award.

 

[AndrewW]

The current edition has three primary changes:

1. Smallcraft weapon systems have drastically curtailed ranges.

Only if you use fixed mounts - use a turret or barbette and get normal range, or use missiles or torpedoes.

Smallcraft weapons are mounted on firmpoints, even if in a turret or barbette and still subject to the range limitations of firmpoints.

 

[Condottiere]

Starship: Cutlass Class Commercial Cruiser

This would be a combination of the Broadsword with one of it's cutters.

A two hundred tonne hull, with a performance of three gees and three parsecs, with a payload of a thirty man platoon, one air/raft, and two all terrain vehicles.

With the engineering compartment limited to thirty five tonnes, the basic crew would be a pilot, a navigator and an engineer, with two gunner positions.

Electronics would be a ten tonne bridge and military sensors.

Engineering would allocate twenty tonnes to a jump drive, six tonnes to a manoeuvre drive, and nine tonnes to a power plant.

Sixty one tonnes of fuel, enough for thirty one plus days of operations, and a three parsec drop down the rabbit hole.

 

[baithammer]

Nope, big ships have big engines and are just as fast

Big ships tend to be limited to thrust 6 even in the big ship universe where small craft are able to get up higher, also need to remember starships trade thrust for jump capability.

 

[Sigtrygg]

There is nor rule in the game to limit a capital ship to thrust 6 while allowing smaller ships to go higher. In point of fact the big ships with maneuver 9 and reaction drives on top will be more effective than small ships because they can mount a lot more weapons, sensors and armour compared with the smallcraft.

If you want a universe where smallcraft can be faster than big craft no probs, but the OTU is not it.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Smallcraft weapons are mounted on firmpoints, even if in a turret or barbette and still subject to the range limitations of firmpoints.

In which case that needs clarification in the next version of High Guard since the design sequence says you can upgrade to turret, not to mention it makes installing a turret a pointless waste of money.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

In which case that needs clarification in the next version of High Guard since the design sequence says you can upgrade to turret, not to mention it makes installing a turret a pointless waste of money.

The default is fixed mount, which cannot fire if you loose the dogfight roll.
You can upgrade to a turret, still on a firmpoint, still with limited range, but the weapon can always fire in dogfight.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Dogfighting in space under Newtonian physics with 6g+ drives is preposterous, not to mention weapons that should be automatically hitting and mission killing any smallcraft that gets within a few hundred km.

Dogfighting is fine for a Star Wars science fantasy cartoon cinematic system of ship combat - it has no place in the OTU.

 

[AndrewW]

In which case that needs clarification in the next version of High Guard since the design sequence says you can upgrade to turret, not to mention it makes installing a turret a pointless waste of money.

Ships of less than 100 tons have Firmpoints instead of Hardpoints.
A weapon on a Firmpoint may not have its range increased beyond Close by any means.

 

[baithammer]

There is nor rule in the game to limit a capital ship to thrust 6 while allowing smaller ships to go higher.

1st Ed MGT gave a maximum of thrust 6 for capital ships ( HG drive potentials) and a maximum of thrust 16 for small craft.

The examples given in the new edition follow the same design logic.

Dogfighting in space under Newtonian physics with 6g+ drives is preposterous

How so?

not to mention weapons that should be automatically hitting and mission killing any smallcraft that gets within a few hundred km.

Which isn't the case as there are penalties for hitting smaller craft and no weapon has an automatic hit capability.

 

[Sigtrygg]

In which case that needs clarification in the next version of High Guard since the design sequence says you can upgrade to turret, not to mention it makes installing a turret a pointless waste of money.

Ships of less than 100 tons have Firmpoints instead of Hardpoints.
A weapon on a Firmpoint may not have its range increased beyond Close by any means.

Thank you but I can read.

It later says you can:

but can be upgraded to a single
(not double or triple) turret.

Now since you can only install a turret on a hardpoint your turret is automatically hardpoint mounted.
The rules are vague - hence the need for clarification, nor do they conform to previous canon.

 

[AndrewW]

but can be upgraded to a single
(not double or triple) turret.

Now since you can only install a turret on a hardpoint your turret is automatically hardpoint mounted.
The rules are vague - hence the need for clarification, nor do they conform to previous canon.
[/quote]

The upgrade is from a fixed mount. Small Craft do not have any hardpoints, a Small Craft turret is mounted to a firmpoint. Yup, firmpoints where a change.

I agree, the Small Craft rules under Weapons and Screens can use some clarifications (I tried to get some added in...).

 

[Sigtrygg]

There is nor rule in the game to limit a capital ship to thrust 6 while allowing smaller ships to go higher.

1st Ed MGT gave a maximum of thrust 6 for capital ships ( HG drive potentials) and a maximum of thrust 16 for small craft.

The examples given in the new edition follow the same design logic.

There is no such rule in the new edition. Do we apply all the rules from first edition to second edition - or just cherry pick?

Dogfighting in space under Newtonian physics with 6g+ drives is preposterous

How so?

You have no medium to exchange energy with. As a result ships in space can not bank and turn like aircraft, nor can the suddenly stop and reverse direction - handbrake turn.

Dig out a vector movement based game and actually play it - if you don't have one I would recommend Triplanetary or Mayday.

MgT ignores vector movement, the thrust required to change range bands is just a poorly understood stab at adapting range band movement.

not to mention weapons that should be automatically hitting and mission killing any smallcraft that gets within a few hundred km.

Which isn't the case as there are penalties for hitting smaller craft and no weapon has an automatic hit capability.

Rules included to do nothing more than make MgT ship combat model Star Wars rather than OTU established canon.

Think about it - a laser can hit a target at 10,000km with an 80% chance. If the target is ten times closer your chance to hit it becomes an order of magnitude easier, at one hundred times closer you have two orders of magnitude higher probability to hit. This is assuming a smallcraft sized target.

As I keep saying - if you want Star Wars as your ship combat model fair enough - but don't try and claim that ship combat in the OTU is Star Wars like. It never has been and never will be (see Triplanetary, Mayday, LBB:2, HG, BL, BR).

 

[Condottiere]

They're like underclocked energy weapons, which brings forth the question, why not install the full versions?

Anyway, optimistically you could have an acceleration chair that compensates for one gee, and advanved pilot chair that manages two gees, and an acceleration tank for three gees, though I think the one in Fire Fusion Steel is two.

A crewless drone can probably go as fast as the equipment has inbuilt tolerance for, and I will admit it never occurred to me until recently that discrepancy, mostly because I was trying to figure how inertial compensators worked, and if it was a field created by the manoeuvre drive, how that would effect a ship powered by reaction rockets.

 

[baithammer]

There is no such rule in the new edition. Do we apply all the rules from first edition to second edition - or just cherry pick?

Its called inferred from examples provided where no capital ship in the new system has a thrust value over thrust 6, that isn't a cherry pick its what has been presented. You also keep bringing past editions up in discussions so I backed up precedence from the earlier edition.

You have no medium to exchange energy with. As a result ships in space can not bank and turn like aircraft, nor can the suddenly stop and reverse direction - handbrake turn.

Dogfighting is getting into range where a missile exchange would be less than ideal and where maneuver is more important than speed, which doesn't limit itself to a particular medium.

As for banks and turns, a spacecraft can certainly simulate banks and turns but would be rather wasteful given the environment they operate under.

Stop and reversing direction in a spacecraft is rather easy in space unlike air.

 

[Sigtrygg]

To stop and reverse direction you have to completely cancel your current vector.
A space fighter moving at 75km/s 'north' has to apply enough thrust to cancel that before it can move south. You can't just blast across space building up a thrust related vector as you go and suddenly have no vector relative to your target - not physically possible.

Play Triplanetary or Mayday to learn about vector/Newtonian movement

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Dogfighting in space under Newtonian physics with 6g+ drives is preposterous, ...

Of course.

I guess the dogfight rule was added to make fighters viable in space combat, which was rather successful, since many people like fighters.

If you do not like it simply remove the dogfight rule and fighters will cease to be a problem...

 

[baithammer]

To stop and reverse direction you have to completely cancel your current vector.
A space fighter moving at 75km/s 'north' has to apply enough thrust to cancel that before it can move south. You can't just blast across space building up a thrust related vector as you go and suddenly have no vector relative to your target - not physically possible.

Play Triplanetary or Mayday to learn about vector/Newtonian movement

Outside of transit you wouldn't want that amount of speed and would start reserving some of your thrust in order to maneuver.

 

[SSWarlock]

To stop and reverse direction you have to completely cancel your current vector.
A space fighter moving at 75km/s 'north' has to apply enough thrust to cancel that before it can move south. You can't just blast across space building up a thrust related vector as you go and suddenly have no vector relative to your target - not physically possible.

Play Triplanetary or Mayday to learn about vector/Newtonian movement

Better yet, play "Elite Dangerous" using fixed weapons and turn off the Flight Assist setting while in ship-to-ship combat. Not perfect but a decent intro to Newtonian physics.