Ships_Captain
Mongoose
Wow, thanks for all this info guys, there's certainly a lot there to churn through and nut out 
Ship Design Formula !
- Thread starter Ships_Captain
- Start date
Sorry Alex I don't think range is anywhere near as important as you state. Yes if you're range 24 and the enemy is range 12, you might be able to avoid return fire. But for how long? 1 turn? 2 turns? It depends on his speed, he is not a stationary target. And a 12" weapon is not much use if your speed is low, but on a fast manouverable ship it is almost as good as a 24" one.
I know speed isn't a factor in your system, that's why I pointed this out and Burger has backed it up!Alexb83 said:
As for the rules ain't changing comment - for B5 they aren't changing and even if/when they do in future, we can't speculate on what we don't know at the moment.
Burger said:
There's a definate danger of mixing up weapons with external factors here - where do you stop? How much better is speed 90 than speed 45? Is it twice as good? Is it then even better if the speed 90 ship has turns 2/180, or vice-versa?
You can get into an unlimited number of permutations of weapon x with traits y on hull z with speed a and turns b.... or you can avoid all the tornado diagrams and make reasonable concessions. It would be a step up from what exists atm.
Alexb83 said:
re Vorlon fighters - the important thing with them is that they have:
A gun that outranges Anti-fighter
Their own Antifighter
Its both a Beam and precise
but can't be recovered by Fleet carrier, or carried by normal ships in teh fleet list (or have their dogfight enhanced)
just one little fighter is a very complicated series of pluses and minuses?
Now here's the simple way I calculate the toughness of a ship:
Do the following steps in order:
Take the lower value for damage or crew as your base.
Self-repair = + (2 x self-repair value, increasing score up to a maximum of the ship's crew score)
pak'ma'ra redundant systems = x 11/10
Gravitic energy grid (see below for values of factors) = (PL factor x 12/13 if interceptors present x dodge factor / hull factor) / (PL factor x 12/13 if interceptors present x dodge factor / hull factor) - GEG score
PL factor: Patrol = 2.6, Skirmish = 2.6, Raid = 3.6, Battle = 5.6, War = 8.6, Armageddon = 12.6
Dodge factor: 2+ = 6, 3+ = 3, 4+ = 2, 5+ = 1.5, 6+ = 1.2
Hull factor: hull4 = 3/4, hull5 = 1, hull 6 = 4/3
Adaptive armour = x 2
Shields = + 7/6 x (starting shields value + 2 x recharge rate)
Interceptors = (+ interceptor value) then x 13/12
Interceptor value: int1 = 3.00, int2 = 4.00, int3 = 4.67, int4 = 5.10, int5 = 5.40, int6 = 5.67, int7 = 5.83, int 8 = 5.90
Dodge = x dodge factor
Dodge factor: 2+ = 6, 3+ = 3, 4+ = 2, 5+ = 1.5, 6+ = 1.2
Stealth = x stealth factor
Stealth factor: 3+ = 8/7, 4+ = 10/7, 5+ = 13/7, 6+ = 18/7
Hull = x hull factor
Hull factor: hull4 = 3/4, hull5 = 1, hull 6 = 4/3
Super manoeuvrable = x 5/4
That gives you your toughness score. It's more complicated than for weapons but that's simply because of the way many of the factors interact.
Next time I'll post how the whole ship's value is calculated.
NB. I know thresholds and crew scores that are similar to damage scores that are in excess have an effect and that self-repair has additional effects than on damage.
Do the following steps in order:
Take the lower value for damage or crew as your base.
Self-repair = + (2 x self-repair value, increasing score up to a maximum of the ship's crew score)
pak'ma'ra redundant systems = x 11/10
Gravitic energy grid (see below for values of factors) = (PL factor x 12/13 if interceptors present x dodge factor / hull factor) / (PL factor x 12/13 if interceptors present x dodge factor / hull factor) - GEG score
PL factor: Patrol = 2.6, Skirmish = 2.6, Raid = 3.6, Battle = 5.6, War = 8.6, Armageddon = 12.6
Dodge factor: 2+ = 6, 3+ = 3, 4+ = 2, 5+ = 1.5, 6+ = 1.2
Hull factor: hull4 = 3/4, hull5 = 1, hull 6 = 4/3
Adaptive armour = x 2
Shields = + 7/6 x (starting shields value + 2 x recharge rate)
Interceptors = (+ interceptor value) then x 13/12
Interceptor value: int1 = 3.00, int2 = 4.00, int3 = 4.67, int4 = 5.10, int5 = 5.40, int6 = 5.67, int7 = 5.83, int 8 = 5.90
Dodge = x dodge factor
Dodge factor: 2+ = 6, 3+ = 3, 4+ = 2, 5+ = 1.5, 6+ = 1.2
Stealth = x stealth factor
Stealth factor: 3+ = 8/7, 4+ = 10/7, 5+ = 13/7, 6+ = 18/7
Hull = x hull factor
Hull factor: hull4 = 3/4, hull5 = 1, hull 6 = 4/3
Super manoeuvrable = x 5/4
That gives you your toughness score. It's more complicated than for weapons but that's simply because of the way many of the factors interact.
Next time I'll post how the whole ship's value is calculated.
NB. I know thresholds and crew scores that are similar to damage scores that are in excess have an effect and that self-repair has additional effects than on damage.
Indeed - and there are whole fleets which can't close blast doors at all, for whatever reason.
As I said earlier - if you're going to go to the effort of building a points system, then do some other bits of housekeeping at the same time.
Throwing out the PL system is going (I think - based on the values of some of the ships coming out in points, even in the rough n ready system I set forward) going to fundamentally change the number of ships you see on the table relative to what the PL points break down would let you have - hence initiative order, deployment, scenarios etc. etc.
As I said earlier - if you're going to go to the effort of building a points system, then do some other bits of housekeeping at the same time.
Throwing out the PL system is going (I think - based on the values of some of the ships coming out in points, even in the rough n ready system I set forward) going to fundamentally change the number of ships you see on the table relative to what the PL points break down would let you have - hence initiative order, deployment, scenarios etc. etc.
To give yourself a points value for a ship:
Add all of your weapons values together = Weapons
Weapons x Toughness x (1+(((Weapons/Toughness)-0.225)/1)) = Subtotal
Points value = 2^(logbase3(Subtotal/40))
Finally add on the points for any fighters, modified by how quickly they can be released and fleet carrier.
I can normally work out the cost of a single ship in about 20-30 seconds like this so it's not too bad.
NB. I've not mentioned things like scout, AF, AAF and escort. These are a little harder to incorporate. Fighters, carriers and fleet carriers will all come later.
Add all of your weapons values together = Weapons
Weapons x Toughness x (1+(((Weapons/Toughness)-0.225)/1)) = Subtotal
Points value = 2^(logbase3(Subtotal/40))
Finally add on the points for any fighters, modified by how quickly they can be released and fleet carrier.
I can normally work out the cost of a single ship in about 20-30 seconds like this so it's not too bad.
NB. I've not mentioned things like scout, AF, AAF and escort. These are a little harder to incorporate. Fighters, carriers and fleet carriers will all come later.
It certainly could be looked at - in this case there are a lot of metagame issues with that like how many "good" low PL ships are there in the fleet? If there are a lot then initiative is less important.Target said:
I have integrated it as a fundamental part of the dogfighting ability of fighters as who gets the "charge" normally makes a lot of difference.
E-Mines Hurt
Mongoose
Rather than building ships from scratch I prefer the variant approach. You can build a ship for the EA that matches the White Star but that just means the flavour of the fleets is gone. I'm rather inspired by the Hyperion Variants of the Early EA Era. The formula I use for allocating firepower resources is as follows.
Rule 1. You must use an existing hull. Same damage, crew, hull, speed, turns etc.etc.
Rule 2. You must use an existing weapons system. You cannot give a race mini-beam if it doesn't have a weapon with mini-beam. Your weapon must have the same traits as weapon your race already has you can change AD.
Rule 3. You can only add weapons if you remove an equivalent value from another weapon.
Rule 4. Moving AD between the F/P/S/A arcs costs half the value of the weapon.
Rule 5. Moving from a flexible to a less flexible arc (T to F/P/S/A or F to B or A to Ba) doubles the value of the weapon.
Rule 6. Changing the range of a weapon increases/decreases cost exponentially. (Doubling the range increases cost by 4, halving the range reduces the cost to 1/4)
Cost of traits
SL x1/2
W x1/2
1S x1/2
SL* x1
P x4/3
Acc x3/2
Comm x3/2
EM x2
AP x2
DD x2
TwL x2
SAP x3
MB x3
QDx4
B x6
Grav x8
I calculated a Chronos Gunship variant (like the Olympus Gunship) for the Crusade Era. Replacing the Railgun and the Heavy Pulse Cannons with a 3AD Heavy Laser Cannon (Range 18; Arc B; Special B,DD)(Just like the one on the Hyperion with 1 less AD).
I've been looking into ways of adding/removing traits like troops, shuttles, interceptors, GEG, CarrierX, CommandX, Fleet Carrier and moving between priority levels.
Rule 1. You must use an existing hull. Same damage, crew, hull, speed, turns etc.etc.
Rule 2. You must use an existing weapons system. You cannot give a race mini-beam if it doesn't have a weapon with mini-beam. Your weapon must have the same traits as weapon your race already has you can change AD.
Rule 3. You can only add weapons if you remove an equivalent value from another weapon.
Rule 4. Moving AD between the F/P/S/A arcs costs half the value of the weapon.
Rule 5. Moving from a flexible to a less flexible arc (T to F/P/S/A or F to B or A to Ba) doubles the value of the weapon.
Rule 6. Changing the range of a weapon increases/decreases cost exponentially. (Doubling the range increases cost by 4, halving the range reduces the cost to 1/4)
Cost of traits
SL x1/2
W x1/2
1S x1/2
SL* x1
P x4/3
Acc x3/2
Comm x3/2
EM x2
AP x2
DD x2
TwL x2
SAP x3
MB x3
QDx4
B x6
Grav x8
I calculated a Chronos Gunship variant (like the Olympus Gunship) for the Crusade Era. Replacing the Railgun and the Heavy Pulse Cannons with a 3AD Heavy Laser Cannon (Range 18; Arc B; Special B,DD)(Just like the one on the Hyperion with 1 less AD).
I've been looking into ways of adding/removing traits like troops, shuttles, interceptors, GEG, CarrierX, CommandX, Fleet Carrier and moving between priority levels.
E-Mines Hurt
Mongoose
OK, here they are.
Chronos Gunship - Skirmish - Crusade
Earthforce Legends from the Dilgar War constantly raved about the Olympus Gunship and it's performance. Aggressive Captains could perform miracles with this ship. A subculture of these captains, in part inspired by Dilgar methods, lobbied to build a modern equivalent after the Earth-Minbari War. The Earth Alliance's lack of ability to damage Minbari ships meant that there was a willingness to listen to new ideas on how to do damage. Ultimately the project lost prestige when a crewman assigned to one of the gunships wrote an article titled "We might as well just ram the F***ers, we'll have the same chance at survival" in the New York Times. The ships were kept in use however, the Gunships were the bastion of glory hunters and criminals seeking remission of sentence.
Speed: 6
Turn: 2/45o
Hull: 6
Damage: 16/3
Crew: 18/5
Troops: 2
Craft: None
Special Rules: Anti-Fighter 2, Interceptors 2
In Service: 2268+
Weapon Range Arc AD Special
Heavy Laser Cannon 18 B 3 Beam, DD
Trym Gunship - Skirmish - Crusade
In response to the article "We might as well just ram the F***ers, we'll have the same chance of survival" one of the members of the Gunship project argued that the Chronos Gunship just didn't have enough firepower. This testbed vehicle removed all secondary weapons and all defensive equipment and replaced it with capacitors to power an extra beam. It just takes just one media savvy war hero to get the plum job of a one way trip like this. Capt. Kobayashi has a mission to bring back Bushido, the way of the warrior, this is his chance. He and his hand picked crew are just looking for the chance to prove themselves. The extra capacitors proved dangerous to the crew and the ship was decomissioned when Capt. Kobayashi refused chemotherapy.
Speed: 6
Turn: 2/45o
Hull: 6
Damage: 16/3
Crew: 18/5
Troops: 2
Craft: None
Special Rules: Unique
In Service: 2270-2273
Weapon Range Arc AD Special
Heavy Laser Cannon 18 B 3 Beam, DD, SL
Heavy Laser Cannon 18 B 3 Beam, DD, SL
*The Trym can choose to ignore the Slow Loading trait of one of the weapons by not reloading the second.
Advanced Nova Dreadnought - Raid - Crusade
After the Earth Civil War removing Pres. Clark from power there was a pressing need to find ships, any ships as quickly as possible. Various previously decommissioned Nova's were to be found around Earth Alliance territory. These were quickly fitted out with more modern weapons. When newer Marathons were ready to be deployed these ships were set to be decommissioned again. They were not however as outlying colonies and private security contractors bought them for orbital defence. Earthforce permitted private contractors to operate warships to relieve Earthforce of patrol duties as well as providing auxiliary ships during conflict. They were later brought back into Earth Force service when the mini beam equipped Advance Novas proved exceptionally good at protecting convoys and fleets against heavy fighters.
Speed: 6
Turn: 1/45o
Hull: 5
Damage: 36/9
Crew: 45/12
Troops: 2
Craft: 4 Aurora
Special Rules: Anti-Fighter 2, Interceptors 2, Lumbering
In Service: 2265+
Weapon Range Arc AD Special
Heavy Pulse Cannon 12 F 8 Twin-Linked
Heavy Pulse Cannon 12 P 8 Twin-Linked
Light Laser Cannon 15 P 6 Mini-Beam, Slow-Loading
Heavy Pulse Cannon 12 S 8 Twin-Linked
Light Laser Cannon 15 S 6 Mini-Beam, Slow-Loading
Heavy Pulse Cannon 12 A 4 Twin-Linked
Orestes Upgrade - Battle - Third Age
After the Earth-Minbari War there was a pressing need to find any serviceable warships. Again the recently decommissioned Orestes found renewed life. However, the Orestes was big scary and had a big gun. This proved sufficient for private contractors and minor Earthforce outposts. Yet another round upgrades was needed. Earthforce permitted private contractors to operate warships to relieve Earthforce of patrol duties as well as providing auxiliary ships during conflict.
Speed: 6
Turn: 1/45o
Hull: 6
Damage: 48/10
Crew: 55/12
Troops: 2
Craft: None
Special Rules: Anti-Fighter 3, Interceptors 2, Lumbering
In Service: 2248 - 2265
Weapon Range Arc AD Special
Heavy Laser Cannon 25 B 6 Beam, Double-Damage
Medium Pulse Cannon 12 F 12 Twin-Linked
Medium Pulse Cannon 12 P 14 Twin-Linked
Medium Pulse Cannon 12 S 14 Twin-Linked
Medium Pulse Cannon 12 A 6 Twin-Linked
Orestes Final Upgrade - Battle - Crusade
After the Earth Civil War removing Pres. Clark from power there was a pressing need to find ships, any ships as quickly as possible. Mothballed Orestes hulls and not yet decommissioned Orestes' serving in marginal systems were brought back for refitting with more modern weaponry. It was useless to advanced space combat though. By this time the comparison of "deploying a ship fighting at Trafalgar in the Jutland Battle Line" was starting to prove exceptionally correct. The Orestes hull allowed for heavy weaponry, but it was looking more and more like an orbital defence satellite which could move between planets.
Speed: 6
Turn: 1/45o
Hull: 6
Damage: 48/10
Crew: 55/12
Troops: 2
Craft: None
Special Rules: Anti-Fighter 3, Interceptors 2, Lumbering
In Service: 2265+
Weapon Range Arc AD Special
Heavy Particle Cannon 35 B 4 Beam, Triple-Damage
Medium Pulse Cannon 12 F 4 Twin-Linked
Light Laser Cannon 15 F 8 Mini-Beam, Slow-Loading
Medium Pulse Cannon 12 P 6 Twin-Linked
Light Laser Cannon 15 P 8 Mini-Beam, Slow-Loading
Medium Pulse Cannon 12 S 6 Twin-Linked
Light Laser Cannon 15 S 8 Mini-Beam, Slow-Loading
Medium Pulse Cannon 12 A 2 Twin-Linked
Light Laser Cannon 15 A 4 Mini-Beam, Slow-Loading
P.S. Every new ship needs a story. I might want to reduce the Orestes' to Raid and Remove the Boresight Lasers like the Batrado vis a vis the Avioki.
Chronos Gunship - Skirmish - Crusade
Earthforce Legends from the Dilgar War constantly raved about the Olympus Gunship and it's performance. Aggressive Captains could perform miracles with this ship. A subculture of these captains, in part inspired by Dilgar methods, lobbied to build a modern equivalent after the Earth-Minbari War. The Earth Alliance's lack of ability to damage Minbari ships meant that there was a willingness to listen to new ideas on how to do damage. Ultimately the project lost prestige when a crewman assigned to one of the gunships wrote an article titled "We might as well just ram the F***ers, we'll have the same chance at survival" in the New York Times. The ships were kept in use however, the Gunships were the bastion of glory hunters and criminals seeking remission of sentence.
Speed: 6
Turn: 2/45o
Hull: 6
Damage: 16/3
Crew: 18/5
Troops: 2
Craft: None
Special Rules: Anti-Fighter 2, Interceptors 2
In Service: 2268+
Weapon Range Arc AD Special
Heavy Laser Cannon 18 B 3 Beam, DD
Trym Gunship - Skirmish - Crusade
In response to the article "We might as well just ram the F***ers, we'll have the same chance of survival" one of the members of the Gunship project argued that the Chronos Gunship just didn't have enough firepower. This testbed vehicle removed all secondary weapons and all defensive equipment and replaced it with capacitors to power an extra beam. It just takes just one media savvy war hero to get the plum job of a one way trip like this. Capt. Kobayashi has a mission to bring back Bushido, the way of the warrior, this is his chance. He and his hand picked crew are just looking for the chance to prove themselves. The extra capacitors proved dangerous to the crew and the ship was decomissioned when Capt. Kobayashi refused chemotherapy.
Speed: 6
Turn: 2/45o
Hull: 6
Damage: 16/3
Crew: 18/5
Troops: 2
Craft: None
Special Rules: Unique
In Service: 2270-2273
Weapon Range Arc AD Special
Heavy Laser Cannon 18 B 3 Beam, DD, SL
Heavy Laser Cannon 18 B 3 Beam, DD, SL
*The Trym can choose to ignore the Slow Loading trait of one of the weapons by not reloading the second.
Advanced Nova Dreadnought - Raid - Crusade
After the Earth Civil War removing Pres. Clark from power there was a pressing need to find ships, any ships as quickly as possible. Various previously decommissioned Nova's were to be found around Earth Alliance territory. These were quickly fitted out with more modern weapons. When newer Marathons were ready to be deployed these ships were set to be decommissioned again. They were not however as outlying colonies and private security contractors bought them for orbital defence. Earthforce permitted private contractors to operate warships to relieve Earthforce of patrol duties as well as providing auxiliary ships during conflict. They were later brought back into Earth Force service when the mini beam equipped Advance Novas proved exceptionally good at protecting convoys and fleets against heavy fighters.
Speed: 6
Turn: 1/45o
Hull: 5
Damage: 36/9
Crew: 45/12
Troops: 2
Craft: 4 Aurora
Special Rules: Anti-Fighter 2, Interceptors 2, Lumbering
In Service: 2265+
Weapon Range Arc AD Special
Heavy Pulse Cannon 12 F 8 Twin-Linked
Heavy Pulse Cannon 12 P 8 Twin-Linked
Light Laser Cannon 15 P 6 Mini-Beam, Slow-Loading
Heavy Pulse Cannon 12 S 8 Twin-Linked
Light Laser Cannon 15 S 6 Mini-Beam, Slow-Loading
Heavy Pulse Cannon 12 A 4 Twin-Linked
Orestes Upgrade - Battle - Third Age
After the Earth-Minbari War there was a pressing need to find any serviceable warships. Again the recently decommissioned Orestes found renewed life. However, the Orestes was big scary and had a big gun. This proved sufficient for private contractors and minor Earthforce outposts. Yet another round upgrades was needed. Earthforce permitted private contractors to operate warships to relieve Earthforce of patrol duties as well as providing auxiliary ships during conflict.
Speed: 6
Turn: 1/45o
Hull: 6
Damage: 48/10
Crew: 55/12
Troops: 2
Craft: None
Special Rules: Anti-Fighter 3, Interceptors 2, Lumbering
In Service: 2248 - 2265
Weapon Range Arc AD Special
Heavy Laser Cannon 25 B 6 Beam, Double-Damage
Medium Pulse Cannon 12 F 12 Twin-Linked
Medium Pulse Cannon 12 P 14 Twin-Linked
Medium Pulse Cannon 12 S 14 Twin-Linked
Medium Pulse Cannon 12 A 6 Twin-Linked
Orestes Final Upgrade - Battle - Crusade
After the Earth Civil War removing Pres. Clark from power there was a pressing need to find ships, any ships as quickly as possible. Mothballed Orestes hulls and not yet decommissioned Orestes' serving in marginal systems were brought back for refitting with more modern weaponry. It was useless to advanced space combat though. By this time the comparison of "deploying a ship fighting at Trafalgar in the Jutland Battle Line" was starting to prove exceptionally correct. The Orestes hull allowed for heavy weaponry, but it was looking more and more like an orbital defence satellite which could move between planets.
Speed: 6
Turn: 1/45o
Hull: 6
Damage: 48/10
Crew: 55/12
Troops: 2
Craft: None
Special Rules: Anti-Fighter 3, Interceptors 2, Lumbering
In Service: 2265+
Weapon Range Arc AD Special
Heavy Particle Cannon 35 B 4 Beam, Triple-Damage
Medium Pulse Cannon 12 F 4 Twin-Linked
Light Laser Cannon 15 F 8 Mini-Beam, Slow-Loading
Medium Pulse Cannon 12 P 6 Twin-Linked
Light Laser Cannon 15 P 8 Mini-Beam, Slow-Loading
Medium Pulse Cannon 12 S 6 Twin-Linked
Light Laser Cannon 15 S 8 Mini-Beam, Slow-Loading
Medium Pulse Cannon 12 A 2 Twin-Linked
Light Laser Cannon 15 A 4 Mini-Beam, Slow-Loading
P.S. Every new ship needs a story. I might want to reduce the Orestes' to Raid and Remove the Boresight Lasers like the Batrado vis a vis the Avioki.
Quartus (Primus varient)
Speed: 8
Turn: 2/45o
Hull: 6
Damage: 52/12
Crew: 65/15
Troops: 12
Craft: Breaching Pod (2)
Special Rules:
Anti-Fighter 2, Jump Engine, Lumbering, Shuttles 4
In Service: 2260+
Weapon Range Arc AD Special
Light Ballistic Torpedoes 20 F 24 P/SL/SAP
Light Ballistic Torpedoes 20 F 24 P/SL/SAP
Mass Driver 10 F 8 MD/SL/SAP/TD
Ion Cannon 12 P 10 DD/TL
Ion Cannon 12 S 10 DD/TL
Ion Cannon 12 A 10 DD/TL
Speed: 8
Turn: 2/45o
Hull: 6
Damage: 52/12
Crew: 65/15
Troops: 12
Craft: Breaching Pod (2)
Special Rules:
Anti-Fighter 2, Jump Engine, Lumbering, Shuttles 4
In Service: 2260+
Weapon Range Arc AD Special
Light Ballistic Torpedoes 20 F 24 P/SL/SAP
Light Ballistic Torpedoes 20 F 24 P/SL/SAP
Mass Driver 10 F 8 MD/SL/SAP/TD
Ion Cannon 12 P 10 DD/TL
Ion Cannon 12 S 10 DD/TL
Ion Cannon 12 A 10 DD/TL
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