Ship ammunition

[FentonGib]

A quickie...

I notice that it says that one ton of ammon gives 12 missiles or 20 sandcaster barrels. I also notice the sample ships in the core book give you various ships with missile launchers or sandcasters.

However I see no ammunition stated...

Since I know that ammo cost is seperate, do I assume that any ammo the players want to take will use up cargo space? So for example the Gazelle close escort has two sandcasters and four missile racks, and 15 tons of cargo. Does this mean that in effect if each weapon had 1 ton of ammo assigned to it it would actually be using 6 of its 15 tons of cargo carrying ammunition?

Or do I assume the 1 ton that each turret has brings a ton of ammo free?

Thanx!

 

[DFW]

Or do I assume the 1 ton that each turret has brings a ton of ammo free?

Thanx!

Nope. The one ton is the turret & associated fire control. Other than the combat round(s) worth loaded in the weapon, you need to allocate storage.

 

[FentonGib]

So basically the ships that have cargo information in the books are effectively all inaccurate because they include weapons but no tonnage at all to ammunition (except the cap ships)?

Would have been helpful for the ship stats to have included ammo if they included weapons in the design... otherwise best to have left the empty hardpoints or empty turrets, rather than give you half of what you need. imo anyhow. lol.

Thanx.

 

[DFW]

So basically the ships that have cargo information in the books are effectively all inaccurate because they include weapons but no tonnage at all to ammunition (except the cap ships)?

Would have been helpful for the ship stats to have included ammo if they included weapons in the design... otherwise best to have left the empty hardpoints or empty turrets, rather than give you half of what you need. imo anyhow. lol.

Thanx.

No, they are accurate. That is how much space they've allocated for cargo. The ship designs as presented, assume a knowledge of the design rules. You can't really read them without that knowledge.

 

[FentonGib]

But if they've allocated tonnage for ammunition-requiring weapons, and cargo, but no tonnage allocated for ammunition then ammunition has to be taken as cargo, or the weapons can't be used.

Maybe "inaccurate" wasn't the best term... "unhelpful" may be more apt. lol.

So in short to clarify: I have to get the ships with ammo-based weapons in the book (e.g. the Gazelle) that don't specifically state ammo tonnage and reduce the cargo by whatever tonnage of ammo I want it to have, right? lol.

Thanx (sorry, noob with Traveller and trying to clarify things).

 

[AndrewW]

But if they've allocated tonnage for ammunition-requiring weapons, and cargo, but no tonnage allocated for ammunition then ammunition has to be taken as cargo, or the weapons can't be used.

Not exactly, some ammunition is stored in the turret as well, you just don't get many shots.

 

[FentonGib]

So please... in noob language... if I make a ship for the players with a sandcaster, or I use a ship from the book that does not STATE ammo tonnage, then how much ammo does it have, and/or do I need to use cargo for ammo tonnage.

lol.

Thanx

 

[far-trader]

So in short to clarify: I have to get the ships with ammo-based weapons in the book (e.g. the Gazelle) that don't specifically state ammo tonnage and reduce the cargo by whatever tonnage of ammo I want it to have, right? lol.

Sorta. What you're actually doing is carrying any desired reloads AS cargo. Your cargo capacity doesn't change, you've simply decided that part of it is going to be used for ammo for the weapons, if desired. You could easily choose not to carry extra ammo for any given mission. Most of the time the ready ammo (in the turret) will be sufficient for an engagement. You and/or the enemy will typically be dead or fled before you need to reload.

Be happy, I've seen some designs for capital ships with expendables that included NO cargo capacity at all. For anything. I'm not saying this is exactly wrong, but it would make those ships very dependent on re-supply ships and/or regular port calls.

Compare this:

A character decides to arm themselves with a 6 shot revolver. The weapon includes 6 rounds in the cylinder. Any extra rounds the character wants will have to be carried in their pockets. This does not make the decision to arm with a revolver wrong in any way. Nor does it change the number and size of pockets the character has. It just defines part of what the character is carrying in their pockets, IF they want to carry extra ammo for the revolver.

 

[far-trader]

So please... in noob language... if I make a ship for the players with a sandcaster, or I use a ship from the book that does not STATE ammo tonnage, then how much ammo does it have, and/or do I need to use cargo for ammo tonnage.

lol.

Thanx

Interesting...

...unless I missed it this is another big errata for Mongoose.

I've not really had a chance to read the whole rules, stuff keeps killing my desire, or I'd like to think I'd have spotted this myself.

I just had a good quick search of the core rules and you're right. Something is missing. Nowhere does it state how many, or even if any, ready ammo is carried in a turret.

Maybe they addressed this in High Guard and thought it not worth mentioning for the core rules. I wonder if this has been asked before on the forums?

Falling back to CT, each weapon in a turret (Missile Launcher or Sandcaster) had 3 ready rounds. So a triple turret of missiles had 9 missiles ready to fire before needing a reload. A double turret of sandcasters had 6 sand cannisters ready to fire before needing to reload. That's what I'd use, but...

Taking core MGT as written there are no ready rounds. To fire a missile or sand turret someone has to manually lug the ammo from the cargo hold, one round at a time, to the turret, load it, and only the can it be fired, once. I'm not even sure the way the rules are (un)written that it would be permitted to carry a single round in a missile launcher or sandcaster. At least that would give you one shot though. And even that is only an interpretation of the fact that no mention is made of any rounds actually carried in the turret.

Sometimes it takes a noob to point out the obvious. Like this one. Although it seems to me a decent proof read of the book would have caught the issue.

Thanks for asking the question FentonGib!

 

[DFW]

Interesting...

...unless I missed it this is another big errata for Mongoose.

... I just had a good quick search of the core rules and you're right. Something is missing. Nowhere does it state how many, or even if any, ready ammo is carried in a turret.

Maybe they addressed this in High Guard and thought it not worth mentioning for the core rules. I wonder if this has been asked before on the forums?

Yep, you missed it.

Main RB pg. 111 "Missile racks need
ammunition – twelve missiles take up one ton of space."

pg. 114 "The cost listed for each vessel includes the 10% discount for being a standard design but does not include any fuel
or ammunition for the weapon systems (if they require it)."

HG pg. 48 "A torpedo barbette costs MCr 4,
taking up five tons of space and does not include any ammunition"

pg. 49 "Railgun Barbette: A barbette railgun takes up five tons of space,
includes space for 20 shots of ammunition"

 

[FentonGib]

I checked high guard too, just in case, and didn't see anything.

I like the idea of all weapons having 3 rounds as standard - it's not a lot, but probably ok for one engagement, and then tonnage is for more long-term aims. So I'm probably going to use that.

I would assume a ship that uses cargo space for tonnage has also sorted out ammo linkage of some kind.

Thanx for that, very helpful.

edit: ooh just noticed other reply. So basically according to the official rules every ship with weapons stated (but no ammo stated) I'll have to reduce cargo capacity in lieu of ammunition space which hasn't been automatically added. So maybe those two sandcaster launchers may share one ton of ammo for 10 shots each, instead of 20 shots each (and two tons)..

Still like house-ruling that all weapons can carry 3 shots (even if you pay for them seperately) even without tonnage. For a small trading ship that wants to avoid combat 20 rounds is overkill... whilst 3 rounds to get out of trouble is about right.

 

[DFW]

I checked high guard too, just in case, and didn't see anything.

Read my post.

 

[FentonGib]

did, and replied (edited).

Reprint:

edit: ooh just noticed other reply. So basically according to the official rules every ship with weapons stated (but no ammo stated) I'll have to reduce cargo capacity in lieu of ammunition space which hasn't been automatically added. So maybe those two sandcaster launchers may share one ton of ammo for 10 shots each, instead of 20 shots each (and two tons)..

Still like house-ruling that all weapons can carry 3 shots (even if you pay for them seperately) even without tonnage. For a small trading ship that wants to avoid combat 20 rounds is overkill... whilst 3 rounds to get out of trouble is about right.

 

[E.D.Quibell]

Main RB pg. 111 "Missile racks need
ammunition – twelve missiles take up one ton of space."

What so Missile racks are one shot if they don't have an ammo store?

HG pg. 48 "A torpedo barbette costs MCr 4,
taking up five tons of space and does not include any ammunition"

Again, one shot only if you don't have an ammo store?

Regards,

Ewan

 

[E.D.Quibell]

Falling back to CT, each weapon in a turret (Missile Launcher or Sandcaster) had 3 ready rounds. So a triple turret of missiles had 9 missiles ready to fire before needing a reload. A double turret of sandcasters had 6 sand cannisters ready to fire before needing to reload. That's what I'd use, but...

Have you got a CT reference for the three ready rounds?

Regards,

Ewan

 

[DFW]

What so Missile racks are one shot if they don't have an ammo store?

Again, one shot only if you don't have an ammo store?

Regards,

Ewan

Yep, per the written rules. As they are physical ammo you have to supply tonnage. That's why a triple laser turret and a triple missile turret takes the same amount of tonnage.

 

[far-trader]

Interesting...

...unless I missed it this is another big errata for Mongoose.

Yep, you missed it.

I don't think so. The question is how many rounds, if any, are in the weapon itself.

Main RB pg. 111 "Missile racks need
ammunition – twelve missiles take up one ton of space."

Speaks to storage, not turret/launcer capacity.

pg. 114 "The cost listed for each vessel includes the 10% discount for being a standard design but does not include any fuel
or ammunition for the weapon systems (if they require it)."

Again, no mention of turret capacity. No mention of capacity at all in fact, just stating that ammo is not included in purchase price which makes perfect sense, it's an expendable, just like fuel, life support, etc.

HG pg. 48 "A torpedo barbette costs MCr 4,
taking up five tons of space and does not include any ammunition"

pg. 49 "Railgun Barbette: A barbette railgun takes up five tons of space,
includes space for 20 shots of ammunition"

So HG does mention and address the capacity, at least for barbettes anyway. And one (torpedo) has no ammo space while the other (railgun) has room for 20 rounds. And it's not terribly consistent imo, having two equal sized weapons and one has ammo space while the other doesn't.

And still not very helpful for missiles (torpedoes). Does it address bay weapons (missiles/torpedoes) any better? Is there no mention/clarification for missile/sand turrets?

What about fighters? Used to be you could design a fighter with missiles/sand and not need cargo space to fight. Do the HG fighters (presuming any were designed for the book) mount missiles/sand? And do they all have cargo space allocated for the actual ammo?

 

[far-trader]

Falling back to CT, each weapon in a turret (Missile Launcher or Sandcaster) had 3 ready rounds. So a triple turret of missiles had 9 missiles ready to fire before needing a reload. A double turret of sandcasters had 6 sand cannisters ready to fire before needing to reload. That's what I'd use, but...

Have you got a CT reference for the three ready rounds?

Regards,

Ewan

Yep, Book 2, pg 32, Reloading:

"Each launcher (sand or missile) has an inherent capacity for three missiles or canisters. This means that a triple turret with three missile launchers has a total of 9 missiles in ready position."

 

[DFW]

I don't think so. The question is how many rounds, if any, are in the weapon itself.

Reread the rules. It doesn't state that it holds ANY in addition to the current load. It DOES state that additional ammo takes X space. Pretty simple. The weapons that DO have additional storage in the turret are clearly listed.

It seems like, for some reason, you are assuming extra storage that isn't stated.

 

[far-trader]

What so Missile racks are one shot if they don't have an ammo store?

Again, one shot only if you don't have an ammo store?

Regards,

Ewan

Yep, per the written rules.

Actually that's not even clear from my reading of it, and only an interpretation. Granted it is the most logical one and would seem to be the intent. It begs clarification though.