Sheoloth: Legend conversion (Completed - now in editing)

[The Wolf]

We may well be, we may well be. It's a challenge, but so was the Spider God's Bride re-write.

 

[strega]

What are you changing drow to?
They are so archetypical D&D that they sort of pollute the Legend thing, but then I don't like elves or dwarves except in a JRRT setting being more of a purist S&S gamer.

 

[Prime_Evil]

What are you changing drow to?
They are so archetypical D&D that they sort of pollute the Legend thing, but then I don't like elves or dwarves except in a JRRT setting being more of a purist S&S gamer.

I think that you can get away with Drow if you make them closer in spirit to Michael Moorcock Melniboneans or the Witch Elves of Warhammer than the way that they are currently depicted in D&D. Imagine them afresh as a race of decadent and amoral immortals who regard surface dwellers with a relaxed contempt rather than hatred. Interestingly, if you go back to the early days of the hobby there is a very strong pulp fantasy influence on the way that Gygax depicted the dark elves - the lost subterranean civilisations of Abraham Merritt (Dwellers in the Mirage, The Moon Pool, Face in the Abyss, People of the Pit) are an obvious source. If you read the description of the Drow City of Erelhei-Cinlu in Vault of the Drow carefully, it is almost pure Merritt (with perhaps a few drops of Moorcock, Lovecraft, and Clark Ashton Smith mixed in for good measure). Just listen to this:

The tiers and dungeons of Erelhei-Cinlu reek of debauchery and decadence, and the city‘s inhabitants are degenerate and effete. (Those with any promise and ability are brought out of the place to serve the fighting societies, merchant clans or noble houses. The rest are left to wallow in the sinkhole of absolute depravity which is Erelhei-Cinlu.) The most popular places in the city are the gambling dens, bordellos, taverns, drug saloons, and even less savory shops along the two main streets. The back streets and alleyways too boast of brothels, poison shops, bars, and torture parlors. Unspeakable things transpire where the evil and jaded creatures seek pleasure, pain, excitement, or arcane knowledge, and sometimes these seekers find they are victims. All visitors are warned that they enter the back streets of the city at their peril.

He packs more flavour into that single paragraph than most treatments of the Drow manage to pack into entire books....

I'd love to see a version of the drow that goes back to the original source material and strips away the accretions that started with R.A. Salvatore. I want my Dark Elves to be cruel and capricious immortals who believe themselves to be beyond human notions of good and evil rather than mere cariacatures of comic book bad guys who are forever scheming to conquer the surface world.....

 

[The Wolf]

Bingo Prime_Evil, I remember those well and they were a big influence on the early design of my drow related things I'd write about. Over time I have really begun to dislike what happened to the drow in D&D in general.

That description brought back many happy memories of the time before the drow were turned into cardboard cut-out villains.

 

[Prime_Evil]

Paradoxically, I also think that the gritty realism of Legend suits the Drow better than the current iterations of D&D / Pathfinder since there has been a significant power creep since the Old School days. You can achieve a sweaty, back-to-basics naturalism with Legend that is impossible in systems where everyone seems to have 100+ hit points...

Also remember that Legend doesn't have an alignment system, but does have the rules for Vices from Pirates of Legend and the rules for Passions from the Elric product line. Imagine a system where Dark Elves start off with vices such as Ambition, Pride, Vengeful, or Lust. These vices could be assigned a numerical rating between 1 and 100. Dark Elves must struggle to resist their own base impulses as they sink into decadence and corruption, making Opposed Rolls between Persistence and the ratings of their vices to resist temptation.

 

[The Wolf]

One thing that the product will need are PC creation rules for drow, so this would be a good place to put something like that Prime_Evil. I am all for things like this, I love putting tools into player's (and GM's) hands.

 

[Prime_Evil]

Hmmm....now you've got me imagining a Drow of Legend sourcebook that converts material Mongoose previously published in books such as Tome of Drow Lore, Quintessential Drow, and Encyclopaedia Arcane – Drow Magic.

There would probably be a market for a sourcebook offering rules for adding dark elves to Legend as a playable race. And if it lures newcomers into the d100 fold, that's a good thing all round....

Here are some initial thoughts on what I reckon such an imaginary work might contain if released as a companion to a Sheoloth conversion. Maybe you can convince Matt that a full-length treatment like this would be a good idea....

Character Creation

• The rules for creating dark elf characters should follow the format established by Vikings of Legend, Pirates of Legend, and Samurai of Legend.
• The character generation rules should cover the variant drow races from the Tome of Drow Lore
• Most Drow characters should use the Decadent cultural background from the Xoth books.
• It may be desirable to add an additional Depraved cultural background to those debased Drow Houses that dabble in forbidden lore and consort with summoned demons.
• Perhaps a sidebar could provide options for creating characters from other races raised as Drow slaves.
• A range of new professions should be provided for dark elven PCs, including such professions as assassin, harlot, torturer, slaver, and warlock.
• Some of the Drow character concepts and prestige classes from the d20 books could be converted into Legend professions.
• A number of new skill specialisations might be described, including such things as Art (Fleshcrafting), Art (Torture), Craft (Poisons), and Lore (Underdeep).
• Perhaps it may also be worth adding a couple of new advanced skills to the system - I'm thinking of things such as Intimidation, Intrigue, and Style.
• There should be a brief note on the use of Streetwise in Drow cities and the use of the Survival skill in the Underdeep. It might also be worth covering the use of the Ride skill with giant arachnids.
• A list of the Combat Styles taught in Drow society should be provided.
• A variant of the the renown rules from Pirates of Legend could be used to measure the reputation of Drow characters within Dark Elf society.
• As mentioned above, the rules for vices from Pirates of Legend could be modified to cover the mental defects experienced by Drow. It should be compulsory for all characters raised in Drow society to possess at least one random Vice. The rules for Vices should be modified to align them with rules for Passions from the Elric rulebook.
• A new background table tailored to Drow society should be provided, modelled on those from the Legend core rulebook and Vikings of Legend. ("You assassinated your parents when you were a child....")
• The standard Legend rules for Family Ties and Connections should be modified to reflect the structure of Drow society.
• A number of feats from the d20 source material could be converted into new Legendary Abilities suitable for experienced Drow characters.
• In addition, a few of the prestige classes described in the d20 books have special abilities that might also be converted into new Legendary Abilities.

Equipment

• The description of Drow economics from Tome of Drow Lore and Quintessential Drow should be reworked to align it to the rules from Arms of Legend
• The Drow equipment from Quintessential Drow and the Tome of Drow Lore should l be converted for Legend, including the various weapons and armour unique to the dark elves.
• It might be worth adapting the rules for Asset Points from Deus Vult to allow Drow characters to gain access to equipment by virtue of their affiliation with a noble house or cult.
• The role of merchant guilds should be discussed and the guilds from Sheoloth should be described using the Faction rules from the Legend Core Rulebook.
• A number of the magic items from Tome of Drow Lore and Quintessential Drow could be converted to use the enchantment rules from Arms of Legend.
• The rules for slave training and the slave trade from p32-35 Quintessential Drow should be converted to Legend.
• The narcotics and poisons used by Drow should be summarised in game terms.

Religion and Faith

• The drow cults from the Tome of Drow Lore should be revised using the faction rules from the Legend rulebook.
• The Incubulous Heresy from the Sheoloth hardcover should also be covered.
• The cult descriptions should be modified to follow the format introduced in the Xoth books.
• Some clerical spells from the Tome of Drow Magic and Quintessential Drow could be converted into new divine spells, although many of them need to be toned down a bit.

Magic

• The fleshcrafting rules from Quintessential Drow and Drow Magic could be modified to use the Sorcery rules from Legend, with the Manipulation skill used to control the process.
• The Concert Casting rules from Blood Magic could be used to fleshcraft large structures from multiple living creatures.
• The boneforging rules from the Tome of Drow Lore could be given a similar treatment and the rules more closely aligned to those used by fleshcrafting, although they should remain separate magical techniques. Perhaps it would help to treat them as separate Grimoires in Legend terms?
• Guidelines should be provided for incorporating options from the Arcania of Legend product line into a campaign centred on the Dark Elves, notably those described in the Blood magic, Necromancy, and Demonology books.
• The Gravebond Rules from Quintessential Drow should be replaced by the rules for sacrificial magic from Arcania of Legend: Blood Magic.
• Some basic information about Drow Spirit Magic should be provided.
• The Lifebinding rules from Tome of Drow Lore should be reworked to make them compatible with the Enchantment rules from Arms of Legend.
  The rules for Black Ceremonies from Encyclopaedia Arcane – Drow Magic should be converted to use the rules for Concert Casting from Blood Magic.

Drow Life

• A condensed version of the material from Chapters 1-2 of the Tome of Drow Lore should be included , comparable in size to the historical background section from Vikings of Legend and Samurai of Legend
• The Noble Houses and Mercenary Companies from Tome of Drow Lore should be described using the Faction rules from the Legend Core Rulebook.
• The sections of Quintessential Drow entitled "Silken Strongholds" and "The Game of Bones" should be reworked, aligning them to the rule systems originally developed for the MRQ II Empires hardcover. The expanded options from the Tome of Drow Lore should also be included.

Underdeep Campaigns

• Generic rules should be provided for running an extended campaign in the subterranean dominions of the Drow.
• There should be a brief description of the other cultures that inhabit the sunless depths in terms of their relationships with the drow.
• There should also be a description of the terrain features and natural hazards that adventurers might encounter in the Underdeep, including game rules for such things as cave-ins, sinkholes, subterranean rivers, fungal forests, etc.
• Legend conversions should be provided for the monsters described in "The Creatures of the Underdeep" chapter from the Tome of Drow Lore.
• It may also be worth having a couple of generic drow NPC statblocks in the format established by Cities of Legend - Skarr. Suggestions might include Drow Warrior, Drow Sergeant, Drow Priestess, Drow Warlock, and Drow Noble.

 

[strega]

Some excellent work there Prime_Evil. Now what to call them (I think WOC/Hasbro might get a bit snippy about using drow as a term so divorced from what their creation is now)?

Is drow like orc derived from folklore?

A quick check with Wikipedia indicates that the name may be derived from Trow, a term used in Orkney/Shetlandic legend and referenced by Sir Walter Scott. They are sometimes described as short, ugly, shy and mischievous.

 

[The Wolf]

Afaik drow is one of those terms that tends to be used, comes from folk lore from things like Trow, aye.

Matt would be the one to know if drow is a kosher term.

I don't see why there couldn't be a companion product about the Drow of Sheoloth, if the city itself was well received.

Also, great suggestions/outline there Prime_Evil.

 

[pachristian]

There's nothing quite like a plague of hobbits....

(Hmmm...now I'm imagining a group of cannibalistic hobbits who arrive in a rural area and devour most of the inhabitants before moving on to the next village...lol)

That's it! The zombie apocolypse happens, but only hobbits actually become zombies. Imagine little hairy-footed things climbing onto you trying to reach your brain!

Seriously, I don't mind standard gamer fantasy too much, so, looking forward to this city. Maybe you can include a "low fantasy" option, where the elves, dwarves, and halflings are replaced by humans?

 

[Prime_Evil]

Afaik drow is one of those terms that tends to be used, comes from folk lore from things like Trow, aye.

Matt would be the one to know if drow is a kosher term.

The term Drow was explicitly released as Open Game Content by Wizards of the Coast back in 2000, so it is fine to use so long as you update section 15 of the OGL to reference the d20 SRD.

The concept of Dark Elves is much older, ultimately being derived from Norse mythology. In the medieval sources, the Dökkálfr are swarthy elves who dwell beneath the earth and are contrasted with the fair Ljósálfar ("Light Elves") who dwell in Álfheimr. The 13th century Prose Edda states that the Dökkálfr live underground and are "Blacker than pitch". It hints that their outlook and behaviour is unlike that of the Ljósálfar, but does not elaborate. There does seem to be a weird distinction between the Dökkálfr and the Svartálfar (Black Elves) who inhabit the world or dimension known as Svartálfaheimr, but the exact nature of the relationship is unclear. The world of Svartálfaheimr does also seem to be associated with the Dwarves (dvergr), leading some scholars to assume that the Svartálfar are actually Dwarves. I'm not convinced by this argument though - I like the idea that the Dökkálfr and Svartálfar are two different groups of Dark Elves. Certainly, the Svartálfar are associated with magical craftsmanship since the Svartálfar known as the Sons of Ivaldi craft the ship of Frey (Skidbladnir) and the Spear of Odin (Gungnir), as well as replacement hair for Thor's wife Sif (!). Also, the fetters known as Gleipnir used to bind the wolf Fenris (Fenrisúlfur) were crafted by the Svartálfar - the fetters are said to be forged from six impossible things (including the sound of a cat's footfall and the breath of a fish), and to be lighter than a silken ribbon but stronger than steel. However, it is once again unclear whether these enchanted items are created by Elves (álfar) or Dwarves (dvergr). I hope this mythological background helps

 

[Prime_Evil]

And here are a few new professions from my home campaign that may be useful when creating Drow characters - I've assembled a collection of custom professions suitable for pulp fantasy games and would be happy to release them as OGC if anyone is interested:

Assassin
Background: Civilised, Decadent, or Depraved
Common Skills: Athletics +5%, Evade +5%, Perception +5%, Stealth +5%
Advanced Skills: Select any two of the following skills: Disguise, Lore (Poisons), Language (Other), Streetwise.
Combat Styles: Pick a single Combat Style appropriate to your culture and receive it with a +10% bonus
Magic: None
Spells: None

Harlot
Background: Civilised or Decadent
Common Skills: Dance or Sing +5%, Evaluate +5%, Influence or Insight +5%, Perception +5%, Resilience +5%, Sleight or Stealth +5%
Advanced Skills: Seduction, Streetwise
Combat Styles: None
Magic: None
Spells: None

Necromancer
Background: Civilised, Decadent, or Depraved
Common Skills: Persistence +10% and either Influence +10% or Insight +10%
Advanced Skills: Lore (Undead) or Language (Ancient)
Magic: Choose from Spirit Walking and Spirit Binding OR Lore (Specific Theology) and Pact (Cult or God) OR Manipulate and Sorcery (Grimoire)
Spells: Choose 1d4 spells with a necromantic theme.

Slave Trader
Background: Civilised, Decadent, or Depraved
Common Skills: Evaluate +10%, Influence +5%, Lore (Regional) +5%
Advanced Skills: Select two of the following skills: Commerce, Language (Other), Lore (Logistics), Streetwise
Combat Styles: Whip +10%
Magic: None

Street Thug
Background: Civilised or Decadent
Common Skills: Athletics +5%, Brawn +10%, Evade +5%, Unarmed +10%
Advanced Skills: Streetwise
Combat Styles: Knife Fighting or another single Combat Style appropriate to your culture, receiving it at a +10% bonus.
Magic: None
Spells: None

Torturer
Background: Civilised, Decadent, or Depraved
Common Skills: First Aid +5%, Influence +5%, Insight +10%, Perception +5%, Persistence +5%
Advanced Skills: Select two of the following skills: Healing, Lore (Torture), Mechanisms, Streetwise
Combat Styles: None
Magic: None
Spells: None

Warlock
Background: Civilised, Decadent, or Depraved
Common Skills: Insight +5%, Persistence +5%
Advanced Skills: Select one of the following skills: Language (Ancient), Lore (Demonology), Lore (Spirits).
Combat Styles: None
Magic: Manipulate, Sorcery (Grimoire), and Summoning (see Blood Magic...)
Spells: None

 

[auyl]

Don't get me wrong I do love the drow, always have.

My concerns would be that bringing the drow into Legend, some might think we're D&Ding Legend. Not that I would be against it if someone did, it might be a criticism that comes up though.

With the popularity this topic is receiving here, maybe as a future supplement I'll write something up as well concerning the drow, just don't want it to be a D&D or Pathfinder rip off.

 

[Prime_Evil]

I think that Mongoose are increasingly looking at Legend as a potential alternative to D&D / Pathfinder for people who are disillusioned with those systems. This is a high-risk strategy as it may alienate existing fans, but it may also allow them to lure new players over to the dark side. Mongoose can limit the risk to some extent by tapping into their extensive back catalogue of d20 material. There seems to be a market for this approach - look at the success that Chaosium had with their Classic Fantasy book and that GURPS has had with the Dungeon Fantasy line. I'm not sure how I feel about this approach - I don't mind conversions of d20 material, but I'd like a bit more of an 'old-school' feel similar to what Goodman Games achieved with their Dungeon Crawl Classics RPG or what you get from OSR efforts such as Lamentations of the Flame Princess...

 

[The Wolf]

Prime_Evil: Yeah, I am a big fan of norse myth so I loved reading that tid-bit. Also, love those professions too - they certainly would work when it came to drow characters.

I think the plan would be to offer the city, then do supplements building onto drow later down the line. I'd want to offer everything you'd need to create drow adventurers for the book in one place for the time being, then expand on that pulling in things like the d20 drow magic and lore book Mongoose has.

Sheoloth (looking through the files I have) is a pretty interesting and neat place, it reminds me of the big city projects I've been involved in, in the past. There'd be room for interesting cults and definitely some nice monster conversions.

All those skills I picked up with Monsters of Legend II and SGB 1,2 3 would come in handy again.

 

[soltakss]

Don't get me wrong I do love the drow, always have.

My concerns would be that bringing the drow into Legend, some might think we're D&Ding Legend. Not that I would be against it if someone did, it might be a criticism that comes up though.

I don't think that bringing drow into Legend would be seen as DnDing it at all. Drow are the sexiest of the elves, in my opinion.

Why not port other races from D20 into Legend? They can be used or ignored at will. I prefer races being tied to campaign settings, personally, but cannot see anything at all wrong with having races written up for general use.

With the popularity this topic is receiving here, maybe as a future supplement I'll write something up as well concerning the drow, just don't want it to be a D&D or Pathfinder rip off.

That's easy to do - give them a specific Legend Cultural Background/Professions/Traits/Cults and you have a Legend version.

 

[auyl]

Don't get me wrong I do love the drow, always have.

My concerns would be that bringing the drow into Legend, some might think we're D&Ding Legend. Not that I would be against it if someone did, it might be a criticism that comes up though.

I don't think that bringing drow into Legend would be seen as DnDing it at all. Drow are the sexiest of the elves, in my opinion.

Why not port other races from D20 into Legend? They can be used or ignored at will. I prefer races being tied to campaign settings, personally, but cannot see anything at all wrong with having races written up for general use.

With the popularity this topic is receiving here, maybe as a future supplement I'll write something up as well concerning the drow, just don't want it to be a D&D or Pathfinder rip off.

That's easy to do - give them a specific Legend Cultural Background/Professions/Traits/Cults and you have a Legend version.

I don't totally disagree with you. Heck in Skaar City of Orcs they mention the duergar and troglodytes in the opening chapter. I just thought that it would be neat to see Legend stand on its own rather than lean on the D20 SRD. Just don't want anyone think that that if they want to do a drow supplement I won't complain or think negatively about it.

 

[Prime_Evil]

I don't totally disagree with you. Heck in Skaar City of Orcs they mention the duergar and troglodytes in the opening chapter. I just thought that it would be neat to see Legend stand on its own rather than lean on the D20 SRD. Just don't want anyone think that that if they want to do a drow supplement I won't complain or think negatively about it.

The d20 system has generated such a wealth of Open Game Content that its inevitable some of it will get converted across to Legend, The important thing is to make sure that only the best material is imported. Don't forget that Mongoose was a very prolific d20 publisher back in the day and has a good idea what products sell and which don't. Converting old d20 products that sold strongly makes good commercial sense, allhough there are some risks associated with this approach. Firstly there's the risk that you alienate gamers who prefer an approach closer to older Mongoose RuneQuest products, but this segment of the market may not be large enough to sustain Legend on its own - especially as many of them have moved across to RQ 6. A more subtle risk is the difference in tone between the two game systems, but if handled right this can work to the advantage of Mongoose, allowing them to position Legend as similar to D&D, but with a more gritty tone.

 

[auyl]

I don't totally disagree with you. Heck in Skaar City of Orcs they mention the duergar and troglodytes in the opening chapter. I just thought that it would be neat to see Legend stand on its own rather than lean on the D20 SRD. Just don't want anyone think that that if they want to do a drow supplement I won't complain or think negatively about it.

The d20 system has generated such a wealth of Open Game Content that its inevitable some of it will get converted across to Legend, The important thing is to make sure that only the best material is imported. Don't forget that Mongoose was a very prolific d20 publisher back in the day and has a good idea what products sell and which don't. Converting old d20 products that sold strongly makes good commercial sense, allhough there are some risks associated with this approach. Firstly there's the risk that you alienate gamers who prefer an approach closer to older Mongoose RuneQuest products, but this segment of the market may not be large enough to sustain Legend on its own - especially as many of them have moved across to RQ 6. A more subtle risk is the difference in tone between the two game systems, but if handled right this can work to the advantage of Mongoose, allowing them to position Legend as similar to D&D, but with a more gritty tone.

Again I'm not completely disagreeing with you. I recognize that Mongoose started out the way it did, heck my business is doing the same. I think if they were to transfer over from the D20 SRD they should be very careful which races they switch over, as you said. Again I wouldn't complain if someone did a drow supplement, just as long as it wasn't a direct clone of D&D or Pathfinder, but that points been made already.

 

[Prime_Evil]

Even a direct conversion of d20 / Pathfinder material is likely to have a very different 'feel' to the original version simply because Legend is a very different game system that favours a different style of play.