shamans

PhilHibbs said:
Vagni, you've raised an interesting point on the wiki article. Should a Follower of a spirit cult have their own Spirit Binding skill in order to access spirits in fetishes that their shaman has given to them? Or, as with Spirit Combat, could they use their Persistence?

I use half their unmodified Persistence skill as for the RAW on spirit combat, but the idea of using Lore (Shamanic Tradition) is a good idea too.

I should add that in my interpretation, a failed roll simply means the spirit sits snugly in its fetish, ignoring the inept attempts to call it forth and command it. So you can always have another go at releasing and commanding it later.

In the RAW Shamans can release a spirit from its fetish automatically as a single CA, the Spirit Binding skill is then used to command it.
 
Another fetch related question I have. Fetches are mentioned in several of the Cults and Races of Glorantha as being sourced from appropriate spirits, these can be animal, elemental etc.

So my question is, does the fetch display any of the traits and abilities of it's source creature? So, for example, can a shade fetch still cause fear? Can an air spirit lift things if it's strong enough? etc.
 
Vagni said:
So my question is, does the fetch display any of the traits and abilities of it's source creature? So, for example, can a shade fetch still cause fear? Can an air spirit lift things if it's strong enough? etc.
Yes. It gives an extra dimension to the shamanic tradition/cult, and makes the shaman themselves more interesting.
 
Mongoose Pete said:
Vagni said:
So my question is, does the fetch display any of the traits and abilities of it's source creature? So, for example, can a shade fetch still cause fear? Can an air spirit lift things if it's strong enough? etc.
Yes. It gives an extra dimension to the shamanic tradition/cult, and makes the shaman themselves more interesting.

Thanks Pete, that's great. So a Kolati would probably use sky, air or bear spirits for a fetch, maybe even a bird.

I have to say I really like the new spirit magic rules. They put spirit cults far more in line with sorcery and divine and make the whole shamanic tradition very playable. :D
 
Vagni said:
I have to say I really like the new spirit magic rules. They put spirit cults far more in line with sorcery and divine and make the whole shamanic tradition very playable. :D
Great! I am very pleased to hear that.
 
Here's a suggestion on how to handle spirit magic users seeking and using spirits based roughly on how I handle things in my own game. It certainly won't be to everyone's game style or taste but may just prove useful for those still struggling with the spirit magic rules. The tables don't paste in too well so I hope they make sense. Apologies it's such a long post, I'll probably put it on the Wiki as well at some point.

-------------------------
Spirit Magic

Spirit magic is practised by various spirit cults in both the historical world and in many fantasy worlds. The shaman is the leader of these practices, acting as an intermediary between the mundane world and the spirit world. Shamans use their various spirit skills and abilities to communicate with, and manipulate spirits to bring about a change in the physical world.

Locating Spirits

There really is no better way to run locating and dealing with spirits within a game than through role-playing the encounters. However, this is not always practical, particularly with larger groups where the other players have no real dealings with the spirit world. The following house rules are presented here to provide an alternative that can used during downtime for a spirit magic user to locate, negotiate with and bind spirits. This may involve the shaman spending Improvement Points to gain such spirits as for common magic. They are meant as a guide only and games masters are positively encouraged to amend and modify them as they see fit.

The first step in seeking a spirit is for the shaman to actually decide on what type of spirit he seeks. This could be as simply as looking for a healing spirit to heal the clan chiefs son of his serious wound, or as complex as seeking an allied magic spirit with a set of fire related spells to help defeat a local troll tribe. The possibilities are as vast as the spirit world itself and so the player must clearly state to the games master just what type of spirit his character is seeking.

Once the type of spirit has been determined then the shaman needs to make an appropriate Lore roll to find a suitable location to begin his spirit quest. If the shaman is seeking a type of spirit regularly associated with his own spirit tradition and is in his home terrain then a Lore (Shamanic Tradition) roll augmented with Lore (Regional) would be sufficient (see the Core Rulebook p33 for augmenting skill rolls).
If, however, he is in another location or is seeking a more unusual spirit for his spirit tradition then the games master may well feel other skills, such as Lore (Animal) or Lore (Spirit World), may be more appropriate.

The games master may apply modifiers to these skill rolls based upon various advantages or disadvantages. A few possibilities are listed below. These modifiers may well be cumulative.

Reason for skill modifier and Modifier Applied
Appropriate location found (for example; the site of a week old wildfire may grant +5% to find a fire spirit, but the edge of a lava pit would give +20%) = modifier between +5% to +20%
Inappropriate location (for example; an empty sepulchre for seeking a ghoul spirit would be -5%, but seeking a ghoul spirit at a site renowned for healing would give a -20%) = modifier between -5% to -20%
Appropriate time or holy day (for example; an ancestors birthday +5%, midnight for a darkness spirit +10%) = modifier between +5 to +10%
Sacred Time – the spirit world is closer at this time = modifier of +20%
For each Runic affiliation the spirit and shamanic tradition share (even if considered a hostile or enemy spirit) = modifier of +5% per rune
For each Runic opposite the spirit has to the shamans tradition (such as darkness being opposed by fire or light) = modifier of -5% per rune
The spirit type sought is considered an ally to the spirit cult or is an ancestor (such as a horse spirit to a nomad) = modifier of +20%
The spirit type sought is considered hostile to the spirit cult (such as a sickness spirit to a healing cult) = modifier of -20%

Once a suitable location has been determined then the shaman needs to travel there and enter the spirit world as described in the rules for spirit magic (Core Rulebook p138-142). Such journeys are typically only a day or two in duration and should be easily fitted in to players 'down time' between adventures, unless he seeks a particularly unusual or unique spirit.

If the shaman fails his Lore roll then he is unable to even find an appropriate location or his other duties interfere. Perhaps he needs to do further research or perhaps the site was temporarily out of use for some reason. The games master may allow him to make another roll at a later date with a bonus (say +20%) to reflect the current level of research already completed. If he fumbles the roll then he may well find himself in a hostile situation or completely waste his day looking for a suitable spot. If, however, he succeeds then he may then prepare to enter the spirit world on his spirit quest.

The Spirit Quest

Once the appropriate Lore roll has been made and the location found, then the shaman may enter the spirit world and make a Spirit Walking skill to try to find the type of spirit he requires. The shaman may make one such skill roll for every 1D4 hours he remains on the spirit world. This is handled as an opposed test against half the appropriate spirits Persistence skill, as most spirits are not actively hiding.

If he succeeds in locating a suitable spirit then the shaman needs to roll and determine the spirits initial attitude toward him.

1D10 Roll / Spirits Attitude / Influence Modifier
01-05 - Hostile : -20%
06-15 - Unpleasant : -10%
16-30 - Unhelpful or Wary : -5%
31-70 - Neutral or Indifferent : +0%
71-85 - Positive or Helpful : +5%
86-95 - Friendly : +10%
96-00 - Ally : +20%

The above table should only be taken as a guide and it must be remembered that a hostile healing spirit is far less of a concern than a hostile bane spirit! Even a spirit who may be interesting in becoming an ally could well change its attitude. The games master may even allow modifiers to the above roll to reflect the shamans spirit tradition and type of spirit he seeks, such modifiers should only provide a 5% or 10% difference.

Negotiating with the Spirit

Once the spirits initial attitude has been determined then the shaman must either defeat it in spirit combat (sometimes mock spirit combat) and bind it to his service or, more commonly, convince it to assist him with a roll of his Influence skill opposed by the spirits Persistence. The modifier from the Spirit Attitude table above should also be applied to this skill check.

The games master may also allow the shaman to augment his Influence skill with his Lore (Shamanic Tradition) or Lore (Spirit World) should he feel this is appropriate. A critical success could well result in the spirit offering to become an allied spirit, this means the shaman may call upon it any time in the future for its assistance. A fumbled roll would result in a hostile and possibly dangerous response from the spirit.

The games master should now work out some form of agreement between the shaman and the spirit. This is best role-played, if possible, but the following tables are provided with some suggestions, or for when inspiration fails.

Roll 1D10 / Spirits Request / Examples
1 / Physical Task / Deliver a message, climb a hill, move an item
2 / Physical Sacrifice / A sacrifice of alcohol, money, blood, a possession
3 / Physical Compulsion / Eat no meat, remain silent, sleep outside
4 / Mental Task / A riddle or puzzle, answer a question, learn a chant
5 / Mental Sacrifice / Don't use a Lore or INT based skill
6 / Mental Compulsion / Be friendlier, hate darkness, develop a phobia
7 / Magical Task / Cast a spell, seek a spirit, increase a magical skill
8 / Magical Sacrifice / Sacrifice MP's, forget a spell, release a spirit
9 / Magical Compulsion / Cast no fire magic, learn a particular spell
0 / Roll twice / Roll twice and apply the results

Next roll to determine the difficulty of the request, each difficulty has a few suggestions on how to apply the result above.

Roll 1D10 / Difficulty of Request
1-2 / Easy
Task: a simple task taking less than a day, +20% to any skills used to achieve it.
Sacrifice: a minor and inconsequential sacrifice not exceeding 1D6 silver pennies in value, 1D3 magic points/hit points or a rarely used skill for 1D3 days.
Compulsion: a minor, often bizarre, compulsion that has little daily impact for 1D3 days.

3-8 / Medium
Task: a reasonable task taking, well within the shamans abilities, takes 1D3 days.
Sacrifice: a sacrifice not exceeding 2D6 silver pennies in value, 1D6 magic points/hit points or an infrequently used skill for 1d6 days.
Compulsion: a strange, often bizarre, compulsion that has some daily impact for 2D3 days.

9-0 / Hard
Task: a hard task, just pushing the shamans abilities, -20% to skills used to achieve it, takes 2D3 days.
Sacrifice: a sacrifice not exceeding 3D10 silver pennies in value, 1D8 magic points/hit points or a frequently used secondary skill for 1D8 days.
Compulsion: a strange, often bizarre, compulsion that has significant daily impact for 2D6 days.

Remember that an agreement is only made when both parties have finally agreed on the result. The games master may even allow the shaman and spirit to continue to barter using appropriate skills.

Once an agreement has been reached then it becomes binding on both parties and the shaman and the spirit have a temporary alliance (although in reality such agreements are as easily broken on the spirit plane as they are on the mundane plane). A shaman who continually breaks agreements will find that fewer spirits are willing to assist him as time goes on.
 
There's lots of useful work in this thread. I've been outlining ideas from a different perspective as well. As said, the ideal situation is to play out the interactions on the spirit plane but sometimes you want basic, functional questions answered. E.g. I'm a spirit worshipper of Daka Fal, I want a Fetish, how much will it cost, how powerful will it be and what are my choices. For that reason I've been adding some notes to my wiki and coming up with *simple* means of answering these questions. For example, coming up with a simple intensity measure.
POW 7-12: Intensity 1
POW 13-18: Intensity 2
POW 19-24: Intensity 3
POW +6: Intensity +1

Once you have an Intensity measure you can simply say that if you want a fetish then it costs 1 Improvement Roll per Intensity and a cost in goods and services of 200 silvers for Intensity 1, doubled for each additional point of Intensity. So if you want an Intensity 2 Guardian Spirit then it will have a POW of 1D6+12 and other characteristics to match.

It is a God-Learnerish approach, if you like, but once you have a simple correlation then you can build all the other stuff on top systematically.
 
Thanks for the link to your wiki Deleriad, there's some interesting stuff on there and some nice house rules. :D
 
All this talk reminds me of a question I had. I don't have the book with me at the moment, but can a shaman make a spirit go into another persons body to provide them with that spirit's benefit?
 
daxos232 said:
All this talk reminds me of a question I had. I don't have the book with me at the moment, but can a shaman make a spirit go into another persons body to provide them with that spirit's benefit?
I don't think so. Shamans can give fetishes to other members of their practice, but I think technically the recipient has to have their own Spirit Binding skill to use it. Some have suggested using Persistence at half chance for those that don't have Spirit Binding, same as in spirit combat. I don't think so, in my opinion if you want a spirit you have to have the skill.
 
PhilHibbs said:
daxos232 said:
All this talk reminds me of a question I had. I don't have the book with me at the moment, but can a shaman make a spirit go into another persons body to provide them with that spirit's benefit?
I don't think so. Shamans can give fetishes to other members of their practice, but I think technically the recipient has to have their own Spirit Binding skill to use it. Some have suggested using Persistence at half chance for those that don't have Spirit Binding, same as in spirit combat. I don't think so, in my opinion if you want a spirit you have to have the skill.

Interesting question. My initial response would be the same as Phil's, a no, which is what the RAW imply....but then that limits the amount of spirits available for the shaman to hand out to his tribe, so this might not be appropriate for your game/world.

I think one thing we are all getting fixated on are the skills of Spirit Walking and Spirit Binding being exclusive to shamans. In fact these skills are also available to the 'witch' in the professions table and any player from a culture with a spirit tradition could learn them as an additional advanced skill if the GM allowed it. This is further borne out by the fact the skill of Spirit Walking even has a description of the skills use by a spirit cult Follower.

So, my answer would still be a no for my version of Glorantha....but see above. :D

Another question I have is; when a divine cultist is attacked in spirit combat then presumably he only has those MP's that are not tied up in his Pact to act as his 'spiritual hit points'. Is that how everyone else interprets it? :)
 
Vagni said:
Another question I have is; when a divine cultist is attacked in spirit combat then presumably he only has those MP's that are not tied up in his Pact to act as his 'spiritual hit points'. Is that how everyone else interprets it? :)
Good point - divine cultists are suckers for spirits unless they have divine magic that helps them against spirits. At least Kyger Litor shaman/priests have their fetch to draw upon. Unless they are on the spirit plane, without access to it... hm, that's a major flaw I think.
 
PhilHibbs said:
Vagni said:
Another question I have is; when a divine cultist is attacked in spirit combat then presumably he only has those MP's that are not tied up in his Pact to act as his 'spiritual hit points'. Is that how everyone else interprets it? :)
Good point - divine cultists are suckers for spirits unless they have divine magic that helps them against spirits. At least Kyger Litor shaman/priests have their fetch to draw upon. Unless they are on the spirit plane, without access to it... hm, that's a major flaw I think.

I was thinking of house ruling 'Spirit Block' as a standard divine spell - my only reservation is the spells power, as anyone with a half decent Pact skill (say around 50%) can shrug off spirits with a POW of 26 or more. It's also only an Initiate spell.

That said a wise shaman would use elementals as well, as they can attack physically. Spirit Block won't help much when a gnome pulls you 6 feet under or a sylph tosses you off a cliff!

You could use the standard divine spell of Blessing to boost your Persistence if its a cult skill. Maybe another house rule would be to make Persistence a cult skill for all cults - not too sure about that one either to be honest.

Either that or use your 6 points of common magic on Spirit Bane!

.....

Another question is on divine spells granted by allied cults to spirit cults. A shaman has no Pact or Lore skill for the cult, what skill does he use to cast the spell?

I currently have it in mind to use the skills of Spirit Walking in place of Lore (Cult) and Spirit Binding in place of Pact - sort of a reversal of the same thing found in divine/spirit cult crossovers such as Kygor Litor. Although a spells magnitude from an allied cult would be based on the Spirit Binding skill divided by 20 as per the rule in Cults of Glorantha.
 
Vagni said:
I think one thing we are all getting fixated on are the skills of Spirit Walking and Spirit Binding being exclusive to shamans. In fact these skills are also available to the 'witch' in the professions table and any player from a culture with a spirit tradition could learn them as an additional advanced skill if the GM allowed it. This is further borne out by the fact the skill of Spirit Walking even has a description of the skills use by a spirit cult Follower.
This is an important point. A tribe of spirit worshippers are all going to have access to Spirit Walking and Spirit Binding to lesser or greater degree. So you can have a tribe of plains nomads who all carry personal fetishes, albeit probably weaker ones. It is merely that the tribal shaman is the professional spirit magician.

This is no different from the barbarian inhabitants of a village all having access to Divine Magic, but the (rune)priest being the one who can invoke the most potent magic.

Historical Inuit, Sami, Mongolians, Vikings, Chinese, ancient Rome, or any number of other real world cultures and fantasy ones based around everyone venerating the spirit world. All members of the society believe, make offerings to and ask for help from the spirits of nature or ancestors. They don't need the shaman to be present. He's there for community ceremonies and dealing with significant spirit problems.

I was thinking of house ruling 'Spirit Block' as a standard divine spell - my only reservation is the spells power, as anyone with a half decent Pact skill (say around 50%) can shrug off spirits with a POW of 26 or more. It's also only an Initiate spell.
If you house rule 'Spirit Block' as a standard divine spell, I'd suggest changing its affect so that it blocks spirits of up to 3 POW times the level of Magnitude. That should keep things in check. :wink:
 
Vagni said:
Either that or use your 6 points of common magic on Spirit Bane!
Assuming you have enough MPs to cast it in the first place, and it's no use for a shaman trying to capture a spirit.
Vagni said:
Another question is on divine spells granted by allied cults to spirit cults. A shaman has no Pact or Lore skill for the cult, what skill does he use to cast the spell?

I currently have it in mind to use the skills of Spirit Walking in place of Lore (Cult) and Spirit Binding in place of Pact - sort of a reversal of the same thing found in divine/spirit cult crossovers such as Kygor Litor. Although a spells magnitude from an allied cult would be based on the Spirit Binding skill divided by 20 as per the rule in Cults of Glorantha.
What rule is that? I can't find it. The rule seems sensible though. I see from Races that Kyger Litor priestesses can "use their Lore (Kygor Litor) and Pact (Kygor Litor) as substitutes for Spirit Walking and Spirit Binding, but only for the summoning of Uz ancestors." So it isn't for wandering out on the spirit plane and mugging random spirits. Subere gets a similar ability, but they get no Divine Magic so their MPs aren't crippled. In general, I think that spirit abilities are meant to replace Spirit Cult divine magic. Under "Beast Spirit Cult", Cults says: "Through this depth of kinship it becomes possible for cultists to transform into the animal-brother, as in the case of the Telmori or the Rathori of Ralios and elsewhere." It provides no rules for this transformation, though. Off the top of my head, I'd make each of the old "Transform" spells into a spirit - one for head, one for arms, one for torso, and one for legs, although I can't exactly remember exactly what body parts the old Transform spells correspond to.
 
Hm. While browsing Cults...
"Shaman of the (Kargzant) cult are always able to locate and use Salamander Spirits (Intensity 3, so 3 cubic metres, minimum)"
I've been running elementals as being Intensity 1 for 1-2 cubic meters, Intensity 2 for 3 or 4, etc. since the POW bracket for Intensity 1 is 1-12, I2 = 13-24, etc. and a 3 cubic meter elemental has 3d6 POW (or, in the Magic chapter, 1d6+18, which is still 24 or less). Where did the 1-12, 13-24 brackets come from, and how does this reconcile with 3m3 being I3?
 
PhilHibbs said:
What rule is that? I can't find it.

It's in Cults of Glorantha on page 16, 'Divine spells from allied cults'...basically summarised as cult rank is one higher to gain an allied cult divine spell and magnitude is based on Pact (Whatever-cult-this-is-an-ally-of) divided by 20, rather than the normal 10.

For example Waha gains 'Defend Again Chaos' from Storm Bull, but this would be for Acolyte rank or above rather than Initiate as normal.

Which raises another question, normally a divine user may learn as many spells as he has free dedicated POW points. How is this handled for our Waha cultist above? He has no Pact or dedicated POW. Would he just loose it off his MP's perhaps, sort of like a 'phantom' dedicated POW?
 
Vagni said:
It's in Cults of Glorantha on page 16, 'Divine spells from allied cults'...basically summarised as cult rank is one higher to gain an allied cult divine spell and magnitude is based on Pact (Whatever-cult-this-is-an-ally-of) divided by 20, rather than the normal 10.
Ah, I was looking for spirit cults that gave divine spells, got a bit confused there.
Vagni said:
Which raises another question, normally a divine user may learn as many spells as he has free dedicated POW points. How is this handled for our Waha cultist above? He has no Pact or dedicated POW. Would he just loose it off his MP's perhaps, sort of like a 'phantom' dedicated POW?
Good question - I think it's fairly clear that they need to dedicate POW to get divine spells, and existing precedents would point towards using Spirit Walking for Magnitude and Spirit Binding to cast, but that's quite generous since Spirit Walking starts out higher than Pact skills do.
 
PhilHibbs said:
Hm. While browsing Cults...
"Shaman of the (Kargzant) cult are always able to locate and use Salamander Spirits (Intensity 3, so 3 cubic metres, minimum)"
I've been running elementals as being Intensity 1 for 1-2 cubic meters, Intensity 2 for 3 or 4, etc. since the POW bracket for Intensity 1 is 1-12, I2 = 13-24, etc. and a 3 cubic meter elemental has 3d6 POW (or, in the Magic chapter, 1d6+18, which is still 24 or less). Where did the 1-12, 13-24 brackets come from, and how does this reconcile with 3m3 being I3?

Cults heavily implies that when they are summoned as a spirit their Intensity equals their size in cubic metres; so Intensity 1 = 1 cubic metre, 2 = 2 and so on.
In the Core rules POW is 1d6+6, and then the RAW just say an increase of 1 cubic metre per +6 POW.

So, yes, there seems to be a difference between spirit elementals and physical elementals POW for some reason. Maybe spirit cults just attract a better class of elemental! Maybe only these better class elementals can be internalised? :wink:

Personally I don't tend to take the spirits POW and its relevant Intensity too seriously, I figure that there are always spirits with higher and lower POWs and this is reflected by a few of the examples in Cults that don't quite fit the RAW.
 
I have now added a couple of new spirits to the Wiki article based on some I found in Glorantha Core rules, these are tribal spirits and law spirits. :D
 
Back
Top