shamans

Take it easy guys. Its just a game.

I like a lot that the developers take time to answer questions about the rules. I don't want to use house rules yet. I want to give the system a fair run first. And since this is the only part now that I'm not sure about heres what I really want to know(I have the book,times two. I bought the rpgnow version,and one from amazon,Monster and DM screen). Please no house rules or how you do it,I want clarification on the rules for now:

What is a fetch,how is it different from a normal spirit?.

Is it me,or shamans are too powerful? I mean with a couple of the right ancestors I can be a self contained party. Not that I don't like it. In the hands of a good roleplayer it would be a lot of fun hehehe.

Thanks again, Loz and mongoose Pete. This game rocks. I live in the Dominican Republic and I'm trying to get the Runequest movement going.
 
Here's the definition, and pros and cons, of a fetch, taken from the RQII rules.

A fetch is a shaman's guardian spirit, which is usually related in form or nature to the totem spirit of his tribe or cult. In order to become a shaman, a spirit magician must first locate his fetch in a dangerous initiation ritual. Such spirit-quests involve the re-enactment of his cult's mythic foundation to locate his guardian and culminate in a dangerous battle against the traditional enemy of his practice.

The fetch aids the shaman, protecting and guiding him in the spirit world. It is in every way his spirit brother.

The benefits of a fetch are:

• The shaman can see spirits, souls and magical auras without needing to enter a trance
• The shaman can transfer the Magic Points of the fetch to replenish his own
• The fetch can discorporate the soul of a mundane living being, who may resist with an opposed roll of his Persistence against the spirit’s Discorporation skill
• The fetch can possess the shaman’s body whilst he is discorporate, protecting it
• The fetch can substitute itself instead of the Shaman in spirit combat (if in the same location)
• The fetch and shaman are in permanent mental contact, and are aware of each other's senses
• The shaman may invoke any power or ability his fetch knows, and likewise the fetch may cast any Common Magic the shaman knows.
• The bond between shaman and fetch is not vulnerable to magical dismissal

The detriments of a fetch are:

• The fetch may influence the personality of the shaman depending on its totem nature (i.e. a bear spirit fetch may cause the shaman to become soporific during the winter)
• The fetch may draw upon the Magic Points of the shaman in times of dire need
• The fetch will abandon the shaman if he betrays the teachings of his shamanic tradition

A fetch starts with 200 skill points to be assigned to its skills. Fetches can grow in experience just as the shaman does. If desired, a shaman can transfer any or all of his skill improvement rolls to his fetch instead.

A fetch is, essentially, the same as any other spirit but it interacts with the shaman differently and can be developed in the same way as a player character. A fetch is bit like a familiar or a retainer. Its bonded to the shaman and can augment that shaman's capabilities, but the shaman has certain obligations towards it, or the bond becomes compromised.

Are shamans too powerful? Their power level is there to balance this form of higher magic against the power of Divine and Sorcery. A shaman can be devastating if he calls upon his fetch or allied/bound spirits to destroy his foes, but I think you also need to look carefully at the cultural background of the shaman too. A shaman who comes from a culture that venerates nature is less likely to call upon the spirits to kill than, say, a broo shaman who is allied with disease spirits. This, to me, should always be the first port of call when considering a shaman. What does he consider to be taboo? What have his ancestors taught him? What is the example set culturally by his tribe? Would his fetch obey a command to discorporate and savage an enemy?

You'll find an example of how subtle this can be in 'Pavis Rises'. Some of the elves of the Garden there have access to powerful nature spirits but its made clear that any attacks they make using their spirits are not hurtful but designed to inconvenience and embarrass.

I do agree that spirit magic is a very deep, complex magical form that hasn't been necessarily easy to discuss in the constraints of the rulebook. Pete and I have discussed producing a spirit magic clarification article for S&P and this will happen at some stage, although much is dependent on Pete's writing schedule. But the arguments aren't lost on us and we're always happy to offer clarification and examples whenever we can.
 
cerebro said:
Take it easy guys. Its just a game.
I'm not aware of anyone getting wound up or ill-tempered.
cerebro said:
I like a lot that the developers take time to answer questions about the rules. I don't want to use house rules yet. I want to give the system a fair run first.
Me too, which is why I'm trying to work out how it should be done by the book, rather than having to create my own systems from whole cloth.
 
Loz said:
Would his fetch obey a command to discorporate and savage an enemy?
That's one thing that I'm not going to use from the rules - fetches have never had this ability in previous editions, although maybe it is appropriate as a special ability of certain shamanic traditions. It's a guide dog, not an attack dog. It can cast spells while it is guarding the discorporate shaman's body, and it can cast spells through the shaman whilst he is conscious and aware, and it can cast spells on the shaman at any time that he is not discorporate and out of range. That's my opinion, anyway, I like fetches the way they were. There are plenty of other spirits that can be used to attack without making the fetch into a general purpose party member.
 
PhilHibbs said:
That's one thing that I'm not going to use from the rules - fetches have never had this ability in previous editions, although maybe it is appropriate as a special ability of certain shamanic traditions. It's a guide dog, not an attack dog.
Discorporate is merely the ability to bring a soul onto the Spirit Plane. As such it is a neutral ability, like a Combat Style. You can use a weapon to defend yourself, disarm someone, provide a flamboyant distraction or even as a source of performance art - it is not merely the means to kill. How it is used depends on the intent and morals of the user.

Similarly Discorporate was included to provide a spirit with a wide range of options, from drawing petitioners into the spirit world for a nice chat, briefly paralysing aggressive PCs, all the way to the other extreme of ripping souls into shreds.

The original reason I gave fetches the Discorporate skill was so that they could:
1) Be sent to deliver messages to non spirit-magic characters.
2) Bring PC parties onto the spirit plane if a (full) shaman wanted their help on a spirit quest. (Otherwise it takes a High Shaman to do it)

I.e. It was there to improve PC interaction with the Spirit World and be the source of fun adventures.

I find it endlessly fascinating that on offering a versatile power or ability, many groups immediately 'weaponise it' rather than utilising it in a constructive manner. The reason there are no rules specifically limiting or suggesting how it should be used is that it all depends on the setting and culture.

For instance if we were playing in the lands of the Drenai I would say that the Source Priests would never use their Discorporate ability to engage enemies in spirit combat, but only to give advice during dreams or help someone be separated from their pain filled body... whereas members of the Dark Brotherhood could and would utilise it to destroy others. Conversely in a Viking campaign spirits cannot discorporate a victim unless they are asleep first.

Thus precise guidelines are either up to the GM to decide for his campaign, or are provided in the setting specific material - Cults of Glorantha or Vikings for example.
 
Loz said:
Here's the definition, and pros and cons, of a fetch, taken from the RQII rules.

A fetch is a shaman's guardian spirit, which is usually related in form or nature to the totem spirit of his tribe or cult. In order to become a shaman, a spirit magician must first locate his fetch in a dangerous initiation ritual. Such spirit-quests involve the re-enactment of his cult's mythic foundation to locate his guardian and culminate in a dangerous battle against the traditional enemy of his practice.

The fetch aids the shaman, protecting and guiding him in the spirit world. It is in every way his spirit brother.

The benefits of a fetch are:

• The shaman can see spirits, souls and magical auras without needing to enter a trance
• The shaman can transfer the Magic Points of the fetch to replenish his own
• The fetch can discorporate the soul of a mundane living being, who may resist with an opposed roll of his Persistence against the spirit’s Discorporation skill
• The fetch can possess the shaman’s body whilst he is discorporate, protecting it
• The fetch can substitute itself instead of the Shaman in spirit combat (if in the same location)
• The fetch and shaman are in permanent mental contact, and are aware of each other's senses
• The shaman may invoke any power or ability his fetch knows, and likewise the fetch may cast any Common Magic the shaman knows.
• The bond between shaman and fetch is not vulnerable to magical dismissal

The detriments of a fetch are:

• The fetch may influence the personality of the shaman depending on its totem nature (i.e. a bear spirit fetch may cause the shaman to become soporific during the winter)
• The fetch may draw upon the Magic Points of the shaman in times of dire need
• The fetch will abandon the shaman if he betrays the teachings of his shamanic tradition

A fetch starts with 200 skill points to be assigned to its skills. Fetches can grow in experience just as the shaman does. If desired, a shaman can transfer any or all of his skill improvement rolls to his fetch instead.

A fetch is, essentially, the same as any other spirit but it interacts with the shaman differently and can be developed in the same way as a player character. A fetch is bit like a familiar or a retainer. Its bonded to the shaman and can augment that shaman's capabilities, but the shaman has certain obligations towards it, or the bond becomes compromised.

Are shamans too powerful? Their power level is there to balance this form of higher magic against the power of Divine and Sorcery. A shaman can be devastating if he calls upon his fetch or allied/bound spirits to destroy his foes, but I think you also need to look carefully at the cultural background of the shaman too. A shaman who comes from a culture that venerates nature is less likely to call upon the spirits to kill than, say, a broo shaman who is allied with disease spirits. This, to me, should always be the first port of call when considering a shaman. What does he consider to be taboo? What have his ancestors taught him? What is the example set culturally by his tribe? Would his fetch obey a command to discorporate and savage an enemy?

You'll find an example of how subtle this can be in 'Pavis Rises'. Some of the elves of the Garden there have access to powerful nature spirits but its made clear that any attacks they make using their spirits are not hurtful but designed to inconvenience and embarrass.

I do agree that spirit magic is a very deep, complex magical form that hasn't been necessarily easy to discuss in the constraints of the rulebook. Pete and I have discussed producing a spirit magic clarification article for S&P and this will happen at some stage, although much is dependent on Pete's writing schedule. But the arguments aren't lost on us and we're always happy to offer clarification and examples whenever we can.

thanks champ. I think I'm ready to play shamans now.

I have played a lot of games. And players always go for broke when it comes to min maxing. I guess the concern here is avoid that one troublesome player every gamegroup seems to has. Who will throw the book at you,when you talk about roleplaying reasons not to do something.
 
cerebro said:
I like a lot that the developers take time to answer questions about the rules. I don't want to use house rules yet. I want to give the system a fair run first. And since this is the only part now that I'm not sure about heres what I really want to know(I have the book,times two. I bought the rpgnow version,and one from amazon,Monster and DM screen). Please no house rules or how you do it,I want clarification on the rules for now:

Just to clarify that the stuff I have posted above and on the Wiki is not house ruled (unless its clearly marked otherwise), it's based on information gleaned from the Core Rules or Cults of Gloranth so it could still be of use to you. :D

I think that spirit magic is a great system, it is very flexible and does require some thought by the players and GM alike, but once you grasp the basic principles and have looked at how each of the spirit types work then the effort is very much worth it.

I think Pete and Loz deserve a special blessing from the ancestors for their efforts! :wink: :D :D
 
Vagni said:
Just to clarify that the stuff I have posted above and on the Wiki is not house ruled (unless its clearly marked otherwise), it's based on information gleaned from the Core Rules or Cults of Gloranth so it could still be of use to you. :D
That's an excellent piece of work, thanks!
 
Mongoose Pete said:
Discorporate is merely the ability to bring a soul onto the Spirit Plane. As such it is a neutral ability, like a Combat Style. You can use a weapon to defend yourself, disarm someone, provide a flamboyant distraction or even as a source of performance art - it is not merely the means to kill. How it is used depends on the intent and morals of the user.
When a character has been discorporated, can he fight with the spirit with spells (ie. dismiss pow, lightning strike, disruption) and/or magic weapons, or only with the spirit bounding skill(MP vs MP)?
 
PhilHibbs said:
Vagni said:
Just to clarify that the stuff I have posted above and on the Wiki is not house ruled (unless its clearly marked otherwise), it's based on information gleaned from the Core Rules or Cults of Gloranth so it could still be of use to you. :D
That's an excellent piece of work, thanks!

I appreciate the thanks, but Loz and Pete deserve it really, I've just collated it in one place! I'm still only a spirit cult Follower! :wink:

It's worth keeping an eye on the Wiki article as I keep adding further examples and other details as I find them.
 
gran_orco said:
When a character has been discorporated, can he fight with the spirit with spells (ie. dismiss pow, lightning strike, disruption) and/or magic weapons, or only with the spirit bounding skill(MP vs MP)?
Physical attack spells aren't going to do anything to a spirit on the spirit plane. Dismiss POW? Don't know what that spell is. Dismiss Elemental isn't going to work, as that sends the spirit back to the spirit plane... and it's already there. Likewise Banish, unless the spirit is not actually a Spirit Plane denizen, such as a demon. Maybe you could Banish a discorporate shaman back to his body?

Hm, on the subject of Dismiss Elemental, the writeup in the core rules implies that it is one spell that works on any elemental type. But in Cults of Glorantha, cults have for example "Dismiss Elemental (Sylph)" listed as spells.
 
PhilHibbs said:
gran_orco said:
When a character has been discorporated, can he fight with the spirit with spells (ie. dismiss pow, lightning strike, disruption) and/or magic weapons, or only with the spirit bounding skill(MP vs MP)?
Physical attack spells aren't going to do anything to a spirit on the spirit plane. Dismiss POW? Don't know what that spell is. Dismiss Elemental isn't going to work, as that sends the spirit back to the spirit plane... and it's already there. Likewise Banish, unless the spirit is not actually a Spirit Plane denizen, such as a demon. Maybe you could Banish a discorporate shaman back to his body?

Hm, on the subject of Dismiss Elemental, the writeup in the core rules implies that it is one spell that works on any elemental type. But in Cults of Glorantha, cults have for example "Dismiss Elemental (Sylph)" listed as spells.

Interesting question!

I've just had quick look through the spells in the Core rules and found a few possible spells that may work on the spirit plane during spirit combat, either directly or indirectly. Anything with Resist (Resilience) would be out but this still leaves:

Common magic:
Demoralise (although a similar spell, Befuddle, specifically states it can't be used on spirits)
Spirit Bane
Countermagic
Countermagic Shield
Slow ? - it doesn't specifically mention just 'physical' movement only so I don't see why not.
Mobility ?- it doesn't specifically mention just 'physical' movement only so I don't see why not.

Divine :but would Divine still work on the spirit plane? I don't see why not myself.
Cure Disease - but where would the 'exorcised' spirit go? As Phil rightly said your already on the spirit plane.
Dismiss Elemental - but where would the 'exorcised' spirit go? As Phil rightly said your already on the spirit plane.
Fear
Illusion ?
Madness
Laughter ? - do spirits laugh?!
Mindblast
Reflection
Spirit Block

Sorcery: but would Sorcery still work on the spirit plane? I don't see why not myself.
Attract (Spirits)
Banish - but where would the 'exorcised' spirit go? As Phil rightly said your already on the spirit plane.
Castback
Diminish (INT, POW or CHA)
Dominate (Spirit)
Hinder ?- it doesn't specifically mention just 'physical' movement only so I don't see why not.
Neutralise Magic
Phantom (Sense) ?
Spirit Resistance

Maybe dismissing or banishing spells just send the relevant spirit 'away' and allow you so return to your body (no doubt to find your companions have written something rude on your forehead while you were 'out'!!) :wink:
 
Mongoose Pete said:
The original reason I gave fetches the Discorporate skill was so that they could:
1) Be sent to deliver messages to non spirit-magic characters.
2) Bring PC parties onto the spirit plane if a (full) shaman wanted their help on a spirit quest. (Otherwise it takes a High Shaman to do it)
1) used to be done with the Visibility spell, my brother had a troll shaman whose fetch would cast Visibility on itself and go around casting spells on people independently of the shaman. I can understand why the spell was removed, it's kind of obscure and of limited general use. But if a fetch can target characters with Discorporate, then they can target them with Mindspeech, so if a shaman wants that ability then she can get it.
2) is effectively giving Shamans the same ability as High Shamans, so why not just let the Shaman do it? Why restrict an ability to a High Shaman, and then give it to all Shamans via the Fetch?
 
Also, it's much more efficient for a Shaman just to get her Fetch to discorporate her than it is to use Spirit Walking to get there, which takes minutes and costs Magic Points.

There is a barrier between the worlds, stronger in some places than others, and having a Fetch (or any other spirit, for that matter) being able to instantly and automatically (if unresisted) zap someone through the barrier is not right in my opinion.
 
PhilHibbs said:
2) is effectively giving Shamans the same ability as High Shamans, so why not just let the Shaman do it? Why restrict an ability to a High Shaman, and then give it to all Shamans via the Fetch?
Several reasons.
Primarily because it allows me to model settings and genres where spirit magicians don't have fetches. Secondarily that it reflects a High Shaman's power and knowledge that he no longer needs a fetch to achieve the freedom of opening the Spirit World at will.
 
Would a S&P article with lots of spirit examples be of use perhaps?

Pre-generated ancestor spirits and nature spirits, especially, would perhaps be of interest and allow players and GM's to use or adapt them pretty easily without spending too much time rolling up random spirits.

If there is enough interest I would be happy to knock some up and either submit them for S&P or post them on the Wiki.
 
Vagni said:
Would a S&P article with lots of spirit examples be of use perhaps?

Pre-generated ancestor spirits and nature spirits, especially,

I don't think that is the problem most people have. I think it is encounters with spirits where they have a problem. What is the end point of the encounter?

I don't think that many realise how common it may be for the spirit to want the PC to do something on the material plane for them which they cannot do (as in Loz's example upthread).
 
andyl said:
...I don't think that many realise how common it may be for the spirit to want the PC to do something on the material plane for them which they cannot do (as in Loz's example upthread).
Recently my family watched the movie "Ghost Town" which was a lot of fun -- the premise is the main character (who doesn't really like or help people) gets the ability to see, hear, and talk to ghosts. And there are a lot of them in Manhattan. And they all want something -- they're still around because they have unfinished business, but they have no way of contacting the living.

One woman wants her daughter to find a letter she left. Another doesn't want his widow to remarry. Another wants to let someone know an accident was not his fault...it goes on and on.

If spirits are as plentiful as in that movie, and shaman are relatively rare, I could see the shaman being constantly crowded with spirits asking for favors.

Steve
 
sdavies2720 said:
andyl said:
...I don't think that many realise how common it may be for the spirit to want the PC to do something on the material plane for them which they cannot do (as in Loz's example upthread).
Recently my family watched the movie "Ghost Town" which was a lot of fun -- the premise is the main character (who doesn't really like or help people) gets the ability to see, hear, and talk to ghosts. And there are a lot of them in Manhattan. And they all want something -- they're still around because they have unfinished business, but they have no way of contacting the living.

One woman wants her daughter to find a letter she left. Another doesn't want his widow to remarry. Another wants to let someone know an accident was not his fault...it goes on and on.

If spirits are as plentiful as in that movie, and shaman are relatively rare, I could see the shaman being constantly crowded with spirits asking for favors.

Steve

Or not. Since the GM controls that.
 
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