Shadow Issues... Also can someone explain Crits and Shadows?

[OnlyTheShadowKnows]

Okay, as an avid Shadows player I know that you need to kinda bell curve how good ships are against other races. I know they had to pinch the Young Shadow ship to give it a smaller number for Hull damage. My issue is that I played against my friend where he had two War level Sharlins and I had a Young Shadow Ship and two Shadow Stalkers. Young Shadow was obliterated by round three. So does any of the other Shadow Players have that problem with the Young Shadow ship?

Also can someone explain the whole crits thing? I guess I am having a huge problem with Crits....I had this problem with the Liandra and the Ka Bintok...

Sorry to bother...

-OTSK

 

[Humbaba]

Well I for one feel that the Young Shadow Ship is one of the best War level ships out there. It has excellent manuverability which, when combined with a little terrain and Self Repair, make it a real monster. Really I think it is an excellent ship if used carefully. Its only real weakness is against heavy fighters (preferably with a nasty beam ship to back them up). The trick is to not fight fair - hit and run and stay in the weak arcs.

Humbaba

 

[OnlyTheShadowKnows]

That is true, but the hard part is avoiding serious lasers at 35 inches in a forward arc, not even a bore sight...that is hard!...but I hear you, I just think it was amazing rolling on my friends part. I would like to see some more fighters, maybe four shadow fighters instead of 2.

What about crits?

 

[SylvrDragon]

Thank you Shadow. I'll never be able to watch that scene from 300 again with out seeing your sig. lol

 

[Greg Smith]

Crits:

If a Shadow vessel takes a crit in turn 1, it is automatically repaired in the end phase of turn 2.

Example, in turn 1 your young Shadow ship, fires at the enemy, then the enemy unleash all of their weapons in return. They score a single 4-1 crit, reducing your AD by 1.

In turn 2, you fire again, this time with 1 less AD. They fire at you, getting a 4-6 no weapons crit, you've already fired, so it doesn't matter this turn. Your -1AD is repaired in the end phase.

In turn 3 you can't fire. Time to run and hide and let self-repair do its work.

Turn 4 you can fire again.

Hope that helps.

 

[Da Boss]

I would like to see some more fighters, maybe four shadow fighters instead of 2.

What about crits?

there has been a bit of disucssion about this :wink:

 

[[Omicron]Urobach]

I would like to see some more fighters, maybe four shadow fighters instead of 2.

What about crits?

there has been a bit of disucssion about this :wink:

yep...a bit "MANY" discussions. i don´t like that fact about the fighters,also.
but back to tread:

how sayed from the others, don´t attack "frontal" with an shadow junior
terrain is your friend. and if you have problems with fighters And shadow ships are vulnerable for fighter attacks, because lacking AF...an other treat :wink: Use Scouts to avoid this. they are fast and agile enough to handle this problem and avoid the capital ships fire. Guerilla-tactic.....

 

[Ripple]

Also don't be afraid as a Shadow player to flee the table if your getting too stacked up on crit wise. A it's fluffy, the shadows did a number of hit and run raids, B as long as you've earned the points you about to give away by exiting the field, you've done your job. Most younger ships that have turned to go after a single shadow ship are just giving the others ships a flank to work on.

Cannot agree with our resident German sculptor though about the scouts. I find them just short range enough and just small enough that if they try to cover the big ships they end up becoming the target and dieing fast. Not enough trade off for the loss of firepower most games.

Ripple

 

[Tzarevitch]

Okay, as an avid Shadows player I know that you need to kinda bell curve how good ships are against other races. I know they had to pinch the Young Shadow ship to give it a smaller number for Hull damage. My issue is that I played against my friend where he had two War level Sharlins and I had a Young Shadow Ship and two Shadow Stalkers. Young Shadow was obliterated by round three. So does any of the other Shadow Players have that problem with the Young Shadow ship?

Also can someone explain the whole crits thing? I guess I am having a huge problem with Crits....I had this problem with the Liandra and the Ka Bintok...

Sorry to bother...

-OTSK

Could you describe the fight a bit? That matchup is very much in the Shadow's favor. You have two big lumbering targets to shoot at and you outnumber him.

As has been mentioned, if you get hit hard, pull out and wait for self-repair to fix the problem. The one thing to watch out for is his fighters. Shadows don't have any good ways to kill Nials.

I probably also would have taken a pair of scouts instead of the second stalker both for accurate weapons against the fighters (for all the good that will do) and to help reduce stealth on the Sharlins.

Tzarevitch

 

[Target]

Scouts don't get to shoot at fighters usually. Short range & fighters move last means no shots.

 

[Tzarevitch]

Scouts don't get to shoot at fighters usually. Short range & fighters move last means no shots.

Actually they can make it work because of their SM. With pairs of scouts they can provide overlapping cones of fire by facing right at each other at the end of their moves. Any other shadow ship in need of protection should be in one of the 8" cones and at least fighter weapon range away from a cone edge. It works against fighters with 2" and 4" ranges. This does NOT work against super-heavies with 8" range. Note, all shadow ships can do this, scouts are simply better (accurate, non-beam weapons)and cheaper.

The only problem is the fighters will shoot first, there is nothing you can do about that, but you can make sure they never shoot anything again. The scouts are reasonably durable for their level and they have shields and dodge. They should be able to withstand fire from the nials long enough to get return shots off and then go off and repair.

Short range, and ancient tech should also give you a good shot at breaching stealth on the Nials. Put 1 shot only per Nial unless no other targets are available. Save the scout trait for the larger shadow ships firing on the minbari ships unless no targets are available. If no other targets are in range, other shadow ships should be pointed toward another shadow ship to add to the defense cones and assist with fighter-killing.

This tactic works best against races with small numbers of very dangerous fighters (Minbari, ISA, Vorlon etc). Against EA you will probably need more scouts. His fighters hurt and he has a lot of them. He may blow a scout up before it fires.

Ideally you should do this outside range of your enemy's main guns (particularly beams). Do not use it within E-mine range of the Narn, you are serving your ships up to him like Thanksgiving turkey. The Gaim are like the Narn but with less potent e-mines and individual fighters. Gaim will have a LOT of fighters however.

Against Gaim or other races with large numbers of relatively weak fighters, it may be worth it to not waste weapons them; this includes the suicide fighters. Letting a few suicide fighters hit you then running off to regenerate shields and hp removes those fighters from the board forever at no loss to you. Just make sure it is only a few hits and pray for no serious crits. Letting weak fighters hit you so you can unload on his ship may also be worthwhile.

Tzarevitch

 

[[Omicron]Urobach]

Also don't be afraid as a Shadow player to flee the table if your getting too stacked up on crit wise. A it's fluffy, the shadows did a number of hit and run raids, B as long as you've earned the points you about to give away by exiting the field, you've done your job. Most younger ships that have turned to go after a single shadow ship are just giving the others ships a flank to work on.

Cannot agree with our resident German sculptor though about the scouts. I find them just short range enough and just small enough that if they try to cover the big ships they end up becoming the target and dieing fast. Not enough trade off for the loss of firepower most games.

Ripple

this is correct, also...the scout is NOT that powerful fighter killing ship, but...there is no other good option.
shadow fighters....no! you know...

 

[OnlyTheShadowKnows]

Thanks everyone for your advice!!! I really appreciate it!

Okay some of you asked me to be more specific. We played two games. The first game I used the Young Shadow Ship and two Shadow Stalkers. He pretty much wiped the table with me. We set up cause I was so shocked that even with the new shields rule and the self repair, the Young Shadow Ship got pinned and destroyed in about three turns.

The set up for the second game was Young Shadow Ship and four Shadow Scouts. This was a bit better since I had the upper hand with the stealth scores on the Scouts. He still had two Sharlins but no fighters. We didn't use any fighters we just wanted to concentrate on the ships. I was complaining about the lack of fighters with the Young Shadow Ship by just looking at the stats for the ship. Again the ship was pinned and destroyed. I did hold on for a little longer. I think he destroyed my Young Shadow in about four rounds. Thanks to my scouts I was able to corral him to send one of his Sharlins off the board, losing it entirely but the other held on and was able to circumvent my stealth and finish me off.

I did though insist on a third and final game of 2 raid points and I got my revenge back by facing his Brakiri battle point with my two Technomage Pinnances.

I was just confused really on criticals. So I role regular crit tables for Shadows and they are effected and given damage accordingly by what the crit tables tell me. The only thing that they are not affected by is the Crew loss? Am I correct? And that they do not roll for repair, they automatically repair. But if I get two critical damages, lets say -1 speed and -1AD from two different crits. At the end of the next round do they BOTH go away or only one? I am confused on this part.

 

[Ripple]

Both go away, you repair all criticals in the end phase of the turn after they are received. No rolls are necessary and you are not limited in the number that are repaired.

Yes, you take all the damage and effects of the critical table, but the crew score is ignored.

Pinning really makes it hard on shadows now vs beam ships as the roll up is simply not uncommon enough in what are essentially vs short games. Yes beam can also miss, but that only bring your damage potential down a limited amount vs the big roll upward.

Ripple

 

[Tzarevitch]

Lemme see if we can analyze how he got you. How did your opponent set his ships up?

Line ahead like this?

. . . > . . . . . >


Line abrest like this?

. . . >


. . . >


Or some sort of staggered formation like this?

.>

. . . . . . . >


And then how did you approach him? (Turn 1, Turn 2 etc.)

Tzarevitch

 

[OnlyTheShadowKnows]

It was like this.....
> = Sharlins
X = Shadows
X




> x



> x

 

[OnlyTheShadowKnows]

Whoops that didn't work

 

[Tzarevitch]

Assuming I read your fleet layout properly, I'd suggest you approach the Sharlins from the side next time. If you approach from the sides you are facing only the fusion cannon. Never approach a sharlin from front or aft arcs.

Truthfully, he shouldn't be able a shot on you with much other than the mini-beams with only 2 lumbering ships. He'll hit you with the neutron lasers occasionally when he gets lucky, but you are at least as fast as he is and FAR more agile. You have a better initiative as well and you outnumber him. Give up the SM for the round if you have to to get more speed and clear the neutron laser's firing arc. You do not have to attack every round to kill him, he needs to to kill you.

Also concentrate on 1 ship. You should be able to wreck one of the Sharlins in a few rounds. Shadow ships are pretty rugged, but not rugged enough to take a Sharlin beating on them with beams. You'll get pinned and destroyed. If you get hit hard, run out and restore shields and regen your hp. For Shadows time is on your side. Everything on your ship fixes itself.

Tzarevitch

 

[Burger]

Truthfully, he shouldn't be able a shot on you with much other than the mini-beams with only 2 lumbering ships. He'll hit you with the neutron lasers occasionally when he gets lucky

In a 1 v 1 Sharlin against a Shadow Ship, the Sharlin should get a NL in arc every time he wins initiative... which should be about 30% of the time.

 

[Ripple]

I don't have my book in front of me, what are the effects of being pinned? If one is a movement penalty, he'll get a good bit more than 30% of the time.

Does the Sharlin have a rear NL?

That aside, I would think that you will not be able to approach from the side unless you jump in on him. Sharlin starts in a edge of the map area. If you start out in front of him he simply all stops, if you move in he'll get arc and be eligible for all stop and pivot. If you start out off set, he simply turns into the arc you will approach from and you start again with the above. Yes he's lumbering but that just makes him more a turret than not able to turn.

Second is that you do still have to penetrate stealth, in the case of the shadow and two stalkers that's only maxing out at a reduction of 3 if your standing on him, so 3+ then if you make it 2+ for the other ships... not a big chance, but still an issue. Add in that fighter wing....not a small wing with two sharlins either and the tit for tat starts looking less sure even with primarily mini beams.

Anyway, just don't want the guy thinking it should have been a cake walk for him, it's actually a pretty tough fight, with the first turn going against the shadows most often, second being dependent on if anything got pinned, and only in the third do we start to see clean shadow superiority in placement.

Ripple