Setting up a skimming operation in a system

[PsiTraveller]

I've been thinking of the impact of a shipping concern setting up a refueling location at a gas giant. Assume a system bound ship, no Jump drives, that has drones or smaller ships that skim a gas giant and bring the collected fuel to the orbiting ship for processing. The Jump ships working for the corporation can Jump into the system and be immediately fueled by the support ship.

My question is this: What would the planet's response and authority be over a situation like this? Could they charge a fee, issue a permit for the 'mining' of the gas giant for fuel? the same logic applies for a company coming in and grabbing chunks of asteroids for mining. Even low tech world governments can buy some TL 12 ships and crew to claim a region of system real estate. Militarily there could be risks of allowing ships to have the ability to create a source of fuel that is not controlled by the government.

What do you folks do in your campaign? Anyone else have a navy ship with an e-commerce register and a permit dispenser in your campaigns? Or can private companies set up a fueling depot without interference?

 

[Reynard]

More than likely a starport able to gather fuel to support ship refueling operations may have jurisdiction over the use of gas giants and most are Imperial controlled, you know, the ones who control the space outside the 100D mark?

Very few ships will fuel at the gas giant only to burn it travelling the great distance to the homeworld and back again to top off. That's just begging for piracy. Most who do are refueling and jumping soon after from the giant so there's no big loss. Someone competing with fueling operations in the system will probably not be welcomed either by the local authorities and/or the Imperial starport. There should be no reason licensed private fuel operations supplying the system's needs should not be able to operate.

If you can find any version of Beltstrike, it explains how outsystem belters get permission to operate in a claimed system. Just like planets, belts can be claimed and controlled by the local population. It's the space in between planets, belts and probably gas giants that the Imperium holds.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Someone will have jurisdiction over the local gas giant, and will likely have opinions about who is allowed and how to do anything there.


I run with local autonomy over the entire local system (at least if the TL is space capable), so any gas giants would be a local problem.


If you are trying to set up potential naval infrastructure close to the Imperial border, say in the Spinward Marches, the Imperial Navy will be very interested...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

most are Imperial controlled, you know, the ones who control the space outside the 100D mark?

Do you have a handy reference to where that is stated?

 

[Galadrion]

Do you have a handy reference to where that is stated?

Well, if you want the most recently published, it's mentioned in the Traveller Companion that local (which is to say planetary) control is pretty much considered to end at the 100D limit.

Personally, I'd make a few exceptions to that. For example, if the main world government has set up colonies on other planets in the system, they also control the space within 100D of their colonies. Likewise, if they've set up colonies on the moon(s) of a gas giant (particularly colonies which include an armed ship presence), they can reasonably claim control of that gas giant - this would also apply to an orbital station around the gas giant itself, perhaps even more so. In fact, I'd rule that an orbital station around any planet/moon, particularly an armed one, can be used to establish a 100D claim of control around that body... if you can maintain control. Disputed claims, particularly in cases where Imperial or Imperial-registry vessels are threatened, are likely to draw Imperial attention... which may, or may not, help the claimant. Mileage may, and almost certainly will, vary.

 

[Condottiere]

Sovereignty and exclusive economic zone could be a prickly issue, especially if some or all of the moons are inhabited, or someone starts parking asteroids in orbit and builds bases on them.

 

[PsiTraveller]

Let's look at a specific system. Byrni in the Trojan Reach (TR 2527). Tl6 with a Class B starport. 11 worlds and 4 gas giants. The planetary tech level is not going to be able to claim or control much of anything off planet. The government could buy some ships and hire crew. This could allow mining and resource operations for the planet, and allow claims to be made to the local system.

There is no Imperial control being out the the Borderlands.

Making a claim to the system resources would allow the planetary government to gain an income stream of its own. Supplying fuel to the starport could be a nice steady income for the local government and allow tech importation for example. If there is no local authority GeDeCo could send a mining ship in from Vorito and strip mine one of the 11 worlds, or set up a fueling operation for the Megafreighter route and give the Byrni government nothing.

That's the sort of issue I am looking at. Low Tech worlds with no Imperium to keep an eye on things.

 

[baithammer]

Better off putting a station in orbit around a Gas Giant with a Fuel Refinery as it doesn't need to enter the atmosphere and ships could refuel directly from it. ( Use UNREP system.)

 

[Reynard]

Earth even in current times has seen regions with relatively lower tech and resources unable to control their territory. How often have outside governments and corporations just walk in and set up shop as if the locals didn't exist? Villages next to refineries and not receiving a dime while their water is poisoned. People openly used for slave labor on what was once their lands.

Worlds with low tech and low populations have a hard time claiming and holding much beyond the surface and skies of their world and if low enough not even that. Notice Imperial neutrality isn't a blessing to these people except for a bit of trade. Until a world reaches TL 9 just to have Maneuver technology, they really can't efficiently exploit or defend their systems.

 

[PsiTraveller]

Fishing rights off the coast of africa is a good example. China has gained fishing rights and the local industry is suffering.

Putting in a station with drone skimmers is a great idea, but will the planetary government try and nuke it, take it over with hired star mercs, issue you a permit and a tax bill, or impound the station?

I use fuel as an example because it is always needed and the price is set at 500 per ton. So a single purifier can make 10 000 credits per day, every day. This is pretty good money in the OTU. People and governments are going to want a piece of that action.

Low tech governments have the option of buying and hiring high tech people to try and make money from the system resources. At least in MTU it makes sense. Why not use the resources available from a higher tech starport to set up a Customs office and taxation office. Sell asteroid permits, fuel permits. Make some money from the system

 

[Linwood]

I’m about to throw a similar situation at my players. They’ve allied themselves with a low-tech main world (outside Imperial space) but soon discover there is an entire second economy in the outer planets (controlled by the former main world rulers) which they knew nothing about. The main world desperately needs those revenue streams; the former rulers would really like to take “their” planet back but doesn’t have the troops to control a world wIth millions of people (yet). Officially the Imperium just doesn’t care; unofficially the main world is an Ag planet five parsecs from a Pop 10 Imperial world with a severe overpopulation crisis brewing, so securing agricultural trade could buy crucial time for population control measures to kick in.

I’m going with the assumption that outside the Imperium possession is everything. The players may have a hand in changing that in this system....

 

[phavoc]

Imperial law states that a planetary boundary for it's law and ownership end at 100D. A system with gas giants is basically fair game - unless someone has colonized the gas giant with a colony on a moon or a station in orbit (which gets into another unexplored area of stellar law).

Trying to interdict a gas giant will be a very expensive operation for any planetary government. The cost would far outweigh the benefits. Keeping enough ships in orbit to stop any incoming ship and to chase down scofflaws is simply not cost effective. But if control is the primary focus, it's possible to do that - but again it will be very expensive.

The other issue is - why bother? Larger commercial carriers will never skim gas giants for fear of losing their ships. And that's not how corporations work or think. It's just one more cost line on the monthly reports. It's far cheaper and less riskier to buy unrefined fuel and refine it yourself on board. Plus there is the time involved in flying to/from the gas giant. No, you simply won't see the commercial concerns doing any of this.

Frontier refueling is something that won't be done except by the military in exercises or on long-range missions, or by really cheap merchants in their free traders for whom money outweighs time.

What you probably will see is more commercial fueling lighters and skimmer ships collecting hydrogen to send back to the inhabited world(s), colonies and stations that don't have their own fuel sources handy. Tankers and unmanned fuel pods would travel the system making deliveries.

An exception to this idea might be planets like Regina, which orbit the gas giant. However I still don't see any real commercial vessel, and certainly not passenger liners, dipping into a gas giant to save a few credits. The risks outweigh the costs and risks.

 

[baithammer]

Station with a Fuel Refinery gets around the need for ships to skim a Gas Giant as the station uses its drones to provide it with fuel and fills up its storage tanks to provide to others through UNREP system.

 

[phavoc]

Station with a Fuel Refinery gets around the need for ships to skim a Gas Giant as the station uses its drones to provide it with fuel and fills up its storage tanks to provide to others through UNREP system.

I don't think you'll see many freighters and liners using UNREP systems. That's just for military ships. Now you might see fuel lighters coming along side ships at rest to provide them with fuel, atmosphere, water, etc. A freighter that delivers cargo by shuttle would need a tanker to come out and top off it's tanks in orbit (getting it's own shuttle to deliver cargo and then come back with fuel is possible, but not probable).

There is an article on Freelance Traveller about something similar - https://www.freelancetraveller.com/features/culture/reference/rhcat.html

 

[PsiTraveller]

I like the article, thanks for the link. This is a good example of a planet exploiting the resources of the system. Not exactly on the Kardashev scale, but a good step up.

Once the skimmed material gets to the station a ship wanting fuel can just dock and hook up to dockside infrastructure. I guess this might qualify as sort of an UNREP system on the part of the dock, although the UNREP is designed for ships in motion.

 

[Reynard]

On the subject, I hear references to the skimmer drones but haven't seen the stats for one. Anyone?

At the moment I'm assuming these are short ranged remotes or possibly robotic craft that travel to a nearby GG or planet for fuel. Unless the starport (as opposed to a separate space station) is purposely orbiting the source world, you will still need collection tankers to make the trip to and from worlds. Size of these tankers will depend on the scale of a world's needs as well as the port facilities.

If a hydrogen source is important to a system's economy, I could see it worthwhile to have security stationed there in the form of police cutters, an orbiting security station and sensor platforms. A ship's jump flash is a big giveaway as well as your transponder. If the security net is broadcasting refueling is restricted access, expect cutters on the way. There may be a system to get permission and make payment possibly at a reduced cost since you're doing 'self serve' at 25% off. If there's any illegality about frontier fueling they will gather as much information about the ship and be prepared as well as send information to other systems.

The problem with 'stealing' fuel is you need a source to sell it. Most places are going to ask akin to the present day scrap metal business. In many cases your operation won't be getting Cr.100 a ton and most likely closer to 50%. Is it worth the cost of time and machinery to transport and sell in another system under the table or not?

 

[phavoc]

Yes, stats for the ships suffered in the changeover from MGT v1 to MGTv2. If you DM me your email I will email them to you. There are only four - standard tanker drone, ice harvesting variant, the fuel pod tug and the ice harvester drone.

 

[Condottiere]

Time is money, and commercial ships aren't saving anything diverting to an out of the way gas station.

As a way station where the merchantman's skipping the local starport, that's something else.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Well, if you want the most recently published, it's mentioned in the Traveller Companion that local (which is to say planetary) control is pretty much considered to end at the 100D limit.

Thanks, that's quite a shiny, new reference!

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Let's look at a specific system. Byrni in the Trojan Reach (TR 2527). Tl6 with a Class B starport.

With a small pop and a low tech level it wouldn't be able to defend itself. The starport is clearly not local in origin.

With a large inhabitable planet, it would be Aslan breakfast, unless someone protected it. Given the close Imperial client states, I would guess the Empire enforces a Munroe doctrine regarding the human worlds against the Aslan?

Or perhaps Clan Hkaaiheir protects them?