Serentity/Firefly 'verse using MGT

[CosmicGamer]

I'm confused. Don't blame urselves; I'm easily confused.

Obviously fiction.

Western genre: devoted to telling stories set primarily in the latter half of the 19th century in the American Old West.

or

Western: a film, book, etc, concerned with life in the western states of the US, esp during the era of exploration and early development

I see western aspects but it doesn't fall within the definition of the western genre for me.
Side question: would the "Back to the Future Part III" movie be a western?

Fantasy: imagination unrestricted by reality

I see dictionary definition of "fantasy" aspects too. Does it fit the definition of "fantasy genre" though?

The fantasy genre of fiction uses magic and other supernatural phenomena as a primary element of plot, theme, or setting.

I don't think so.

Science fiction is a genre of fiction dealing with the impact of imagined innovations in science or technology, often in a futuristic setting.

Although it is definitely a futuristic setting and there are imagined innovations in science and technology, I don't think the short lived TV show centered on dealing with the impact. The movie is a better fit for this definition.

They always seam to get into fights. Does that make it an action genre?

Action fiction: a subset of creative works emphasizing action rather than other aspects of storytelling.

I think not.

I thought there was good character development and a story to be told. Drama? There is definitely comedy. These are probably the aspects I most enjoyed about the show. Maybe call it a comedy-drama set in the future?

Space Western: The idea is that the vast distances of space have formed barriers and difficulties similar to those faced by American settlers as they crossed and developed the continent, forcing the people to become independent or even insular

I think this term does fit.

A space opera is a work set in a far future space faring civilization, where the technology is ubiquitous and entirely secondary to the story.

I think technology was not a primary part of the TV series, but ubiquitous? Technology was a much more important aspect of the movie.

Speculative fiction is a decent umbrella definition.

Ok, to sum it up; I can see lots of terms that cover the show/movie to varying degrees but I'm confused how "fantasy" would be someones primary description.

 

[locarno24]

This is just the presence of futuristic technology, but not a sign that any kind of science happens during the story or has any influence on the story. If you would put Gawain and Lancelot on flying robot horses and give them flamelances, this would not turn the Arthurian universe into science fiction.

For that matter, that's pretty much what Michael Moorcock does in the Hawkmoon series. Which is justifiably regarded as very good fantastic fiction, but I've never seen it specifically identified as scifi.

I recall a commentary in a preface to a short story anthology - it was either Arthur C Clarke or Isaac Asimov - saying much the same thing; the reason phrases like 'space opera' and similar come into being is that the future setting isn't necessarily science fiction - in science fiction, a key plot element on which the story hangs is the presence (or absence*) of a given technology/concept/whatever.

Firefly is cool, but could pretty much be transplanted wholesale into a contemporary or western setting without changing much; it's about the characters, not the nature of the verse or the gagets in it. And for the record, I think that's a good thing - I love the show.



* The Evolution Man is one of the best bits of science fiction ever (not just my opinion, either) and has no technology beyond the sharpened rock in it.

 

[carandol]

As I said in my first post on this thread, rather than creating a MgT-Serinity conversion, why not write a better "future history"?

Because its familiar to your players? If you create a future history, that's fun, but it doesn't mean your players will be interested. I've got a player who isn't really into SF, and would always say "I don't like science fiction" if I tried to get her to play a SF campaign. But I introduced her to Firefly and she got really into it, because she could see the emphasis was on the characters, not the tech. So I got to run Serenity campaign, and we all had a great time. I didn't have to explain anything, and soon they were happily flying round the 'Verse in a ship. I then got her playing Traveller by explaining it was quite a lot like the Serenity game, and soon she was having a great time in that too.

Maybe Firefly roleplaying is a gateway drug into harder SF games ;-)

 

[GamerDude]

Hmm... definitely Science Fiction! Just because there are cows, horses and slug pistols don't make it not so!

I wish I still remembered where he said it, but in an interview Issac Asimov (Renown and award winning author of both Science Fiction plus actual textbooks) said "If you remove the 'science' from a story and the story doesn't fall apart, it's not Science Fiction, it's just fiction that tries to have a bunch of science in it."

 

[GamerDude]

Sure, it also has elements of fantasy (as does most Sci-Fi)... though at least they got the no sound transmission in space thing right (one of my pet peeves).

"Elements of fantasy"? as in, the genre of sword&sorcery, magic&conflict as written by the classic authors (anything before 1970) or the fact all fiction is "A" fantasy, it's make believe? Even Snow White or Cinderella is fantasy.

Or do you mean the fantasy of magic, other races, of things whimsical that the writer need not create any real structure or framework which guides what is possible and what is not?

 

[hdan]

Firefly / Serenity is nice entertainment, but definitely not science fiction.

I have the impression that it becomes necessary to introduce a new term,
"space fiction", to replace the "science fiction" in the descriptions of all
those media and gaming universes where ideas from science fiction (beam
weapons, starships, etc.) are used, but there is otherwise not even a re-
mote connection with any of the sciences. I am growing a bit tired of rea-
ding "science" on packages which contain no science at all, or treat it in a
way no person interested in science, professional or amateur, could find
remotely plausible.

We already have that term - Space Opera. It's a drama set in a scifi-flavored background.

Firefly/Serenity is classic Space Opera - archetypical characters, the whole "Western" setting (as a literary genre, not as a physical location naturally), big, mysterious forces (Two by two, hands of blue) which catch our "everyman" (though of course not *really* everyman) characters in a desperate adventure.

There's plenty of room in Space Opera to have semi-hard (firm?) science (like hard vacuum and radiation) along side fantastical elements like psionics and "planet of hats" settings.

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

Firefly / Serenity is nice entertainment, but definitely not science fiction.

I have the impression that it becomes necessary to introduce a new term,
"space fiction", to replace the "science fiction" in the descriptions of all
those media and gaming universes where ideas from science fiction (beam
weapons, starships, etc.) are used, but there is otherwise not even a re-
mote connection with any of the sciences. I am growing a bit tired of rea-
ding "science" on packages which contain no science at all, or treat it in a
way no person interested in science, professional or amateur, could find
remotely plausible.

We already have that term - Space Opera. It's a drama set in a scifi-flavored background.

Firefly/Serenity is classic Space Opera - archetypical characters, the whole "Western" setting (as a literary genre, not as a physical location naturally), big, mysterious forces (Two by two, hands of blue) which catch our "everyman" (though of course not *really* everyman) characters in a desperate adventure.

There's plenty of room in Space Opera to have semi-hard (firm?) science (like hard vacuum and radiation) along side fantastical elements like psionics and "planet of hats" settings.

But as space opera the setting is rather unimaginative, which is the other main problem. Westerns in space (and there are better westerns...), funny at first, but then a bit tedious.

So the background gets spiced up with bloodthirsty undead creatures, and a young girl who has super human powers. Presumably if they had made a second series Dr Simon would have become a Watcher. Ho hum.

Firefly has saving graces, it is often a jolly adventure romp, and some of the characters are interesting and intriguing, but it is not really SF, as a western not particulary sophisticated, and as a space opera too dull.

Egil

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

As I said in my first post on this thread, rather than creating a MgT-Serinity conversion, why not write a better "future history"?

Because its familiar to your players? If you create a future history, that's fun, but it doesn't mean your players will be interested. I've got a player who isn't really into SF, and would always say "I don't like science fiction" if I tried to get her to play a SF campaign. But I introduced her to Firefly and she got really into it, because she could see the emphasis was on the characters, not the tech. So I got to run Serenity campaign, and we all had a great time. I didn't have to explain anything, and soon they were happily flying round the 'Verse in a ship. I then got her playing Traveller by explaining it was quite a lot like the Serenity game, and soon she was having a great time in that too.

Maybe Firefly roleplaying is a gateway drug into harder SF games ;-)

Actually, you have a terrific point here

I could be tempted to set up a "firefly" type world on some TL4/5 planet, adventure on that, and then *big flourish* the space ship arrives, opening the door to the rest of the 3I (or whatever)

Egil

 

[hdan]

But as space opera the setting is rather unimaginative, which is the other main problem. Westerns in space (and there are better westerns...), funny at first, but then a bit tedious.

Nevertheless, it is still Space Opera. All this arguing about "is it scifi or is it fantasy?" is pointless. Space Opera is both to some extent.

I suspect Whedon was trying for a setting that might have a broader appeal than a more imaginative setting, and hoped the old classic "wagon trail to the stars" approach might work again, since it would be both familiar and unfamiliar to varying degrees.

Obviously he mis-estimated what the average viewer (whoever that is) would watch, though he bull's eyed what a specific class of viewer wanted to see.

 

[GamerDude]

We already have that term - Space Opera. It's a drama set in a scifi-flavored background.

Firefly/Serenity is classic Space Opera - archetypical characters, the whole "Western" setting (as a literary genre, not as a physical location naturally), big, mysterious forces (Two by two, hands of blue) which catch our "everyman" (though of course not *really* everyman) characters in a desperate adventure.

There's plenty of room in Space Opera to have semi-hard (firm?) science (like hard vacuum and radiation) along side fantastical elements like psionics and "planet of hats" settings.

Space Opera is a good term. In fact IRRC E.E. Doc Smith's books such as the "Lensman" series. I remember reading several of them during High School in the 70's.

 

[BP]

Fiction = made up story - i.e. is not true (whether plausible or otherwise...)

Fantasy = fiction that is unrealistic (imaginative and can include, but is not limited, to magic...).

Science Fiction = story with futuristic or technology dependent setting.

Firefly is set in space - with travel between terraformed moons and planets, space stations, etc. Do the math... :lol:

 

[barnest2]

Firefly is set in space - with travel between terraformed moons and planets, space stations, etc. Do the math... :lol:

But it isn't dependant on that for the story, that's the point.
Space opera is a perfect description

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

Fiction = made up story - i.e. is not true (whether plausible or otherwise...)

Fantasy = fiction that is unrealistic (imaginative and can include, but is not limited, to magic...).

Science Fiction = story with futuristic or technology dependent setting.

Firefly is set in space - with travel between terraformed moons and planets, space stations, etc. Do the math... :lol:

To be honest, considering the lack of science in the "Verse", fantasy seems a better description. The space stations etc are just window dressing, they could just as easily be castles or Fort Apache

Egil

 

[BP]

...
To be honest, considering the lack of science in the "Verse", fantasy seems a better description. The space stations etc are just window dressing, they could just as easily be castles or Fort Apache

Same could be said of most science fiction - especially that made for the screen...

Not that it lacked the hockey stuffs that seem staples of the modern media - but your dislike has you twisting the English language to suit your tastes... the fact that you disliked it would be honest - not sure what you are comparing it to though...

As I posted earlier, Firefly & Serenity definitely have elements of fantasy, as does most science fiction - being meant to entertain the masses, not scientists - and most authors aren't scientists...

Aside from 'gravitics' and 'psionics' the elements of the setting that beggar a scientific bend (mind it is a TV show) where addressed to some degree - i.e. no sound in space, no gravity outside the ships, plasma effects on atmo entry, decompression with no shooting 'flames', bullets didn't (generally) cause folks to fly back ten feet in the air, etc. Not hard sci-fi, but definitely still in the Sci-Fi genre (and actually harder than most TV/movies).

I liked the show - though I could definitely have done without the 'psychic' stuffs and the 'horror' style reavers myself. Would have preferred River trained and medically optimized as a warrior who had become privy to state secrets she was unaware of; and Reavers actually talk more (otherwise, how did they act as a unit) and be more effective - though both these things were more the movie than the TV series.

I also would have preferred 'artificial' gravity ala 2010 and less Earth-like 'moons' (though I can accept the later more easily given it being a TV show - 'alien' worlds are expensive to make realistic - I'd rather it not be tried if the budget ain't there...) and more emphasis on the delays in radio transmissions.

... but such is Hollywood, and many people would disagree with me! It was still much better than most of the crap on TV...

 

[rust]

It was still much better than most of the crap on TV...

Yep, but most evenings even watching paint drying is better than the TV
program.

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

Not that it lacked the hockey stuffs that seem staples of the modern media - but your dislike has you twisting the English language to suit your tastes... the fact that you disliked it would be honest - not sure what you are comparing it to though...

No, I don't dislike the whole thing, as I said above, the plots were often jolly and entertaining, and some of the characters were interesting. And there are few "space fiction" tv shows that are any good at all, so it is always a relief when something watchable is broadcast.

I just feel that the "Verse" could have been much more interesting and/or more scientifically plausible (to be frank, either would have done). In regard to suggesting that I am twisting the language, well, sir, you have stretched it too far to fit a series you like into a catagory you prefer (what is wrong with calling Firefly a fantasy, anyway?)

Comparing it to what? As space opera? As SF? As a western? No, this is the Serenity thread and I am not going to hijack it

Egil

 

[GamerDude]

I just feel that the "Verse" could have been much more interesting and/or more scientifically plausible (to be frank, either would have done).

Joss Whedon as repeatedly said he doesn't know a damm thing about science/physics/etc. but he knows what he likes (and that he really regretted putting the cargo loading door in the very front of the ship).

Now, just for the sake of debate on the terms we all have been tossing about here ya go a little searching on the web:
Fantasy
(http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fantasy)
imagination, especially when extravagant and unrestrained
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasy)
Fantasy is a genre of fiction that uses magic and other supernatural phenomena as a primary element of plot, theme, or setting.

Fiction
(http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fiction)
the class of literature comprising works of imaginative narration, especially in prose form.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiction)
Fiction is any form of narrative which deals, in part or in whole, with events that are not factual, but rather, imaginary and invented by its author(s).

Space Opera
(http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Space+Opera)
a television or radio drama or motion picture that is a science-fiction adventure story.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Opera)
Space opera is a subgenre of speculative fiction that emphasizes romantic, often melodramatic adventure, set mainly or entirely in outer space, generally involving conflict between opponents possessing advanced technologies and abilities.

Science Fiction
(http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Science+Fiction)
a form of fiction that draws imaginatively on scientific knowledge and speculation in its plot, setting, theme, etc.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_fiction)
Science fiction is a genre of fiction dealing with the impact of imagined innovations in science or technology, often in a futuristic setting. Exploring the consequences of such innovations is the traditional purpose of science fiction, making it a "literature of ideas". Science fiction is largely based on writing rationally about alternative possibilities

 

[zero]

Based on those definitions, my Cstars games are just plain fiction :lol:

My Cstars sol system is a mix of Serenity (more Chinese the closer you get to Mercury, completely owned by China - the outer system is a frontier), Dead Space (visual asthetics), Alien and Aliens (types of characters and feel of games) and Event Horizon (level of hard scifi).

I dont really care about how science benefits the setting and my stories are not melodramatic and certainly not romantic - its full-force 80s Cronenberg cinema in its plots :twisted:

 

[BP]

In regard to suggesting that I am twisting the language, well, sir, you have stretched it too far to fit a series you like into a catagory you prefer (what is wrong with calling Firefly a fantasy, anyway?)

You can call it whatever you like... a rose by any other name is still a rose. :lol:

Science Fiction, by definition, also has elements of Fantasy (its original classification) - the only thing that separates it is the use of technology in the story setting/plot. Not qualifying Firefly as Sci-Fi because its not 'scientific' enough in one's opinion is twisting the language to suit one's preferences. Where I come from we call a spade a spade (we also have another way of putting that!)... if the show were pure Fantasy, I'd call it such - I like those shows too!

Heck, I also like Red Dwarf - and though I might be hard pressed to think of a less 'scientific' show (Roadrunner cartoon, maybe...) - it's still Science Fiction -> by definition.

Define Traveller, which as written is actually even less hard science based than FireFly (Jump, Aliens, etc.), simply Fantasy if you like... I'll continue to call it Science Fiction.

Gamerdude - use a real dictionary!

• American Heritage Dictionary
  –noun
  A literary or cinematic genre in which fantasy, typically based on speculative scientific discoveries or developments, environmental changes, space travel, or life on other planets, forms part of the plot or background.