Seeking useful painting advice

[lastbesthope]

Ok,

You're going to want to sit down for this.......

So those who know me maybe taken aback by this but I am going to try to paint some minis for the upcoming tournament.

(For those of you who have spilled your beverage on your keyboard at this news, I apologise, this thread is for useful advice, if you want to mock or make jocular, I've started a separate thread for that here:
http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=46766
)

So as far as I can understand from reading around the forums and the EA-Minbari War painting guide the process goes something like this:

1) Gather and clean all the bits of your minis
2) Assemble where required (superglue seems to be the way to go here)
3) Base coat the minis
4) Next coat(s)
5) Detailing
6) Base them


There have been some good threads on here recently but I have some dumb questions so please, help where you can:

Base coating: I'm planning on doing my Hawkwood like the ones on the website, though probably not in as much detail or as well, so should I basecoat in black or white? black seems good to show the hull plates, but since I'm mpainitng it white/grey with blue detailing is white the way to go?

Also in basecoating, is spraying or brushing the way to go, spraying seems easier, and I do have a garden to make the mess in these days, assuming the weather holds

Assembling the base: OK, the new ball and joint bases, you glue the 'cap'to the bottom of the mini. Do you likewise glue the ball to the stem, and the stem to the base, leaving the ball joint disassembleable (I have decreed that that is, in fact, a word for the purposes of this discussion ) for stowage and transport?

Further coats, I'm going to start grey or white, and then add the details in blue and other colours as appropriate, and see how I go. I doubt my first attempt at poainting a fleet will win any awards, but hey I won't get better without practice.

Thinning paint: Should I thin the paint before applying it, or use it out the tub?

Drybrushing: Apparently this is a simple technique that produces decent results, but is there any particular knack to it?

I did buy some paint a few years ago in a fit of pique about painting my ACTA minis, It's all GW paint, I think I have spray cans of white, black and bolt gun metal, and an assortment of the little pots. Can anyone recommend any good GW colours or other brands of paint, there are some plane model shops about, but other than that GW is the only 'minis' paint I can source locally, Reaper or Citadel are not an option locally.

With some support from you guys, a bit of luck, and if I can somehow find some spare time between now and the tournament, despite the fact that I am away from home every weekend and for a whole fortnight on holiday, I just might show up with some honest to goodness painted minis.

Here's hoping, Operation Carlsberg* has begun!!!

Thanks

LBH

*Operation Carlsberg: Carlsberg don't do painted miniatures, and neither does LBH.....until now......

 

[H]

Ok,

You're going to want to sit down for this.......

So those who know me maybe taken aback by this but I am going to try to paint some minis for the upcoming tournament.

(For those of you who have spilled your beverage on your keyboard at this news, I apologise, this thread is for useful advice, if you want to mock or make jocular, I've started a separate thread for that here:
http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=46766
)

So as far as I can understand from reading around the forums and the EA-Minbari War painting guide the process goes something like this:

1) Gather and clean all the bits of your minis
2) Assemble where required (superglue seems to be the way to go here)
3) Base coat the minis
4) Next coat(s)
5) Detailing
6) Base them


There have been some good threads on here recently but I have some dumb questions so please, help where you can:

Base coating: I'm planning on doing my Hawkwood like the ones on the website, though probably not in as much detail or as well, so should I basecoat in black or white? black seems good to show the hull plates, but since I'm mpainitng it white/grey with blue detailing is white the way to go?

Also in basecoating, is spraying or brushing the way to go, spraying seems easier, and I do have a garden to make the mess in these days, assuming the weather holds

Assembling the base: OK, the new ball and joint bases, you glue the 'cap'to the bottom of the mini. Do you likewise glue the ball to the stem, and the stem to the base, leaving the ball joint disassembleable (I have decreed that that is, in fact, a word for the purposes of this discussion ) for stowage and transport?

Further coats, I'm going to start grey or white, and then add the details in blue and other colours as appropriate, and see how I go. I doubt my first attempt at poainting a fleet will win any awards, but hey I won't get better without practice.

Thinning paint: Should I thin the paint before applying it, or use it out the tub?

Drybrushing: Apparently this is a simple technique that produces decent results, but is there any particular knack to it?

I did buy some paint a few years ago in a fit of pique about painting my ACTA minis, It's all GW paint, I think I have spray cans of white, black and bolt gun metal, and an assortment of the little pots. Can anyone recommend any good GW colours or other brands of paint, there are some plane model shops about, but other than that GW is the only 'minis' paint I can source locally, Reaper or Citadel are not an option locally.

With some support from you guys, a bit of luck, and if I can somehow find some spare time between now and the tournament, despite the fact that I am away from home every weekend and for a whole fortnight on holiday, I just might show up with some honest to goodness painted minis.

Here's hoping, Operation Carlsberg* has begun!!!

Thanks

LBH

*Operation Carlsberg: Carlsberg don't do painted miniatures, and neither does LBH.....until now......

hahahha... k right

basecoat. White will give your ships a shinier appearance, black will give them a more crisp finish. based upon my own obsevations to date, but if you layer your top coats anyway, then this might not be relevant. personally, i prefer black. Spray is simple, stick with spray just beware of temperature changes if you go outside, this can affect the finish of your spraycoat, honestly..

new bases, no idea, not got any

re thinning, depends on your confidence, and indeed your paints. I find vallejo can be used straight from the bottle for bold colours, but i thin them when i layer, citadel I always thin irrespective. As a beginner, if you think you can, then thin, you should get a better smoother finish.

drybrushing, mmm, i can NEVER get this right, although i know the theory. I have had some good effects from it on gun barels, but not for highlighting. Have a go on the underside of a ship to see if you can get it right,


regarding paint types and colours, its all a personal thing, I would use vallejo 9 times out of ten, but others with better skills than I would say otherwise. I would say, with a little thinning, GW paints are fine for basic work,

good luck, I will be astounded and amazed should you pull this off!
:wink:

 

[starbreaker]

You could always just pay a painting service to get it done, you know. Plenty of us out there, although I think I'm on the wrong side of the pond for you. Starship painting jobs tend to come cheap, they're pretty simple.

If you do tackle them yourself, I'd say prime white, then start with a pale gray or pale blue-gray first coat, followed by a couple of staged highlights to pure white. White is tricky, expect it to look awful at first - just remember that pure flat white doesn't actually look very good, while a white highlight on the edges of panels and raised detail looks more natural. After that, pick out your trim and metallic details and any panel lines you want to emphasize in black, followed by blue or metallic as appropriate. Without a black undercoat, metallics (and probably your blues) will tend to look washed out - you never want to paint dark or metallic colors over white if you can avoid it.

Drybrushing is something you learn by practice, and can be frustrating at first but immensely useful once you get the hang of it. The Hawkwood ships aren't the best minis in the world for the technique, although it is quick. I'd advise practicing on some cheap figs (go ebay for those) first - you'll probably find you're leaving too much paint on the brush at first. It really should be nearly dry, hence the name.

One thing to decide on before you prime is how to do your bases. If you leave them clear, you'll want to seal-coat your ships before attaching the bases at all. If you're going to paint them black and then speckle a starfield onto them (a much more natural look IMO) you'll want to do them seperate from the fig (since you're priming white on the ships) but you can attach them before the final seal-coat, since they won't frost when sprayed. Not sure about the best approach on the ball joints - I'm going to skip on them, I think - not a big fan of poseable mounts, although the removable aspect is helpful for transport.

Plenty of good tips available over on dedicated miniatures sites like Frothers or The Miniatures Page, and plenty of starship-specific help over on Starship Combat News.

 

[lastbesthope]

Two words: Seal coat?

LBH

 

[McKickaha]

never tnought i woould see the day. great news. Using the phone so will be brief.

I used white undercoat for the hawkwood.
Gw paints are fine but u should always thin the paint, any brand
get some good brushes, sable, suggest a 002 & 004 at this stage. former for basic all round and latter for fine detail. Lookimg after the brushes is a instruction in itself.
An alternative for easy black panel lining is to apply a very much thinned down black paint, a wash, over the white undercoat, black water effectively.

i dont dry brush any more although a certain al malik desttoyer was a recent exception but get some cheap nylon artist paint brushes from a supermarket great for drybrushing. Drybrushing wastes good brushes very quickly.

Now where did i leave my encounter suit

 

[Genessis]

Ok here’s your guide to painting hawkwood the easy way “ish”

1st: spray two to three coats of white

2nd: paint the blue bite Ultramarine blue might need a second coat

3rd: paint the weapons and engines chaos black plus any over black bits

4th: dry brush your engines+ weapons bultgun metal, to dry brush get an old paint brush, then dip it in the paint followed by brushing off most of that paint on some paper or in my case on the desk, what you won’t is an almost dry brush hence the name.
At this point you just brush were you wont to dry brush.

5th: mix 1 part black wash to 2 parts water and add a little drop off varnish, and simply slap it all over your ship.

6th: the white bits will look a bit black after the black wash so just touch it up with skull white and a bit of water, to just bring back the white a bit but not totally.

7th: with skull white highlight the white bits.

8th: with enchanted blue and a bit of water highlight the ultramarine blue bits.

9th: with 1 part skull white and one part enchanted blue highlight very finely the highlights stated in 8th.

10th finishing touches, this is stuff like windows, logos and what I’ve missed lol.

Any questions just ask


Edit: WOW the time it took me to write this you got a load of posts, sorry if I'v copyed people.

 

[godsgopher]

No doubt some of you have already seen this on another post, but hay, seemed the right place to re-post it.

Regarding Painting and Paints

Step One; in dealing with unpainted miniatures, when you take them out of the package, clean them of with a tooth brush, water and a little soap. Miniatures have whats known as a releasing agent, basically a nonstick powder to get them out of the molds. It washes off easily, but if you don't wash it your paint may not stick well.

Step Two; Base Coat the miniature with a primer, Popular primer colors are White for light colored miniatures, Gray is great for reds and Green colors, and Black which makes for great dark colors. Primers are important because metal surfaces are not easily painted over with acrylic paints.

Step three; Use Acrylic paint. This is a water based very easy to clean up paint. Popular brands are Reaper Master Paints and GW's Paints. there are many others, but do try and avoid high gloss paints unless you want your mini's to look like they are made of cheap plastic.

Step Four; Take a little time to look at your miniature and start painting it in your mind. Keep the base color in mind, think in layers, and add colors in layers.

Step Five; Start painting, be sure to thin your paints a little, painting straight out of the bottle works for newer painters but the sooner your learn to thin down your paints by adding a little water to them, the sooner you learn to get thin smooth even coats the better painter you will become and you will have miniatures that look good.

Step Six; Learn when to stop painting, there reaches a point where more isn't better

Step Seven; To remove paint after you have messed up beyond recovery (Yes even long term painters do this) Use a chemical called "Engine De-greaser" and let it set over night, them scrub the paint off with a toothbrush. Ware protective kitchen gloves when working with this stuff, it sucks all the oil out of you skin, at which the skin starts flaking off. (The little things you learn the hard way )

Step Eight; post pictures of your hard labors for all of us to see and stand in awe of. Before you know it everyone will be pestering you for help with there miniatures!

 

[starbreaker]

Two words: Seal coat?

LBH

Sorry if it was unfamiliar - you'll want to apply some sort of clear sealant to your mini when you're done painting it, to protect the paint job from handling & storage wear. If you don't, you'll find yourself having to retouch areas that rub through to primer or bare metal fairly often. The most common form is some kind of aerosol spray, be it inexpensive Krylon brand matte coat or the relatively pricey GW brand ("armour coat" is their cutesy name for it IIRC). Myself, I prefer Testor's Dullcoat, which produces a smooth matte finish, but it may be hard to come by outside the US. You can also seal things with a gloss spray which is even more durable, but the result is a very shiny figure - most people prefer matte sprays, or a light gloss coat followed by several matte coats to dull the shine back down.

Matte coats do flatten metallic colors a bit, making them look less metallic, but that can be overcome by either re-highlighting the affected sections after the spray, or by hitting them with a little bit of brush-on gloss coat.

 

[Greg Smith]

Two words: Seal coat?

LBH

Otherwise known as varnish.

White Primer for pale coloured minis. Black for darker ones. Personally I use white for almost everything.

The NA ships are small enough that you don't need to do a lot of detail and fancy brushwork to make them look nice on the gaming table.

My advice would be keep it simple for your first attempt.

 

[Rick]

If you prime white - I'd be tempted to put a thinned (about 50/50 with water) black ink wash over the hawkwood mini - then drybrush or detail white over that once it's dry; it really brings out the detail. If you are going to drybrush, use as little paint as possible to start off with (2 thin coats are far better than 1 thick coat), brush diagonally across a linear feature and do it fast; that is, flick the brush quickly across the model (there is a real knack to it, but it doesn't take long to pick it up).

Nearly forgot - I generally use a GW 'ardcoat and then Revell Aqua Colour Matt Varnish over that (usually about a day between coats), the Revell is the best matt varnish I've seen so far - 1 coat will dry to a very flat finish.

1 slightly more advanced tip - you may find that a varnish will darken your colours ever so slightly so you might want to bear that in mind when choosing your paints (I often put a lighter highlight on top so that when the varnish does darken slightly it looks about the same!).

1 more idea - my brother recently sent me a link to a video (I'll try and dig it out) where the chap paints his mini, then gloss varnishes it and THEN uses a thinned wash over the top - apparently it leaves the surface paint untouched and only runs into the recessed areas - I've yet to try it myself but it sounds intriguing!

 

[AdrianH]

To answer the part of the question about bases:

The only bit I glue is the cap onto the model. It's a lot easier to remove the stem from the ball than to remove the ball from the cap, unless you've sanded the ball to the point where the model is likely to tilt when you don't want it to. (OK, the whole idea of the base is to allow you to tilt the model, but it's nice to be able to have it straight and level, or only in a half bank. )

So I can remove the stem from the model and the base from the stem, allowing the whole lot to fit into a small compartment in the carrying case without risking damage to either the stand or the model.

On some B5 models I left out the cap and just glued the stem directly to the model. The cap won't fit between the fins of a Sharlin, for example. And a model as small as the Blue Star looks silly on top of such a large cap, while it can be glued directly to the stem without risk of damage during transport - in fact, this also helps prevent the little model from getting lost! Similar considerations may apply to some Noble Armada ships, e.g. the Wayfarer Explorer.

 

[lastbesthope]

Well I routed through my supplies from a few years ago, the GW paint seemed gloopy but stirred OK, I see what you mean about thinning paint before use.

1) I'll need more mixing pots or a mixing pallete for thinning paint out.

I also have 4 spray cans of Gw paint for basing, 1 Chaos Black, 1 Skull White and 2 Boltgun Metal (Thought it'd be good for EA ships)

I also have some Army Painter Navy Blue Primer and Anti-Shine MAtt Varnish each in a spray can, so that varnish might come in ahndy. I also have some of Army Painter's Strong Tone Quickshade, but I doubt I'll be using that.

I have an assortment of basic GW colour pots to use for my ships, and a couple of empty mixing pots but I think I'll need more. I've had them a few years but they have been unopened and kept indoors so should thin out with water, I hope? Opinion anyone?

Also a small selection of GW brishes, so I seem to have a good basic kit to get started no?

Any advice on my paint stocks?

LBH

So given

 

[Genessis]

Just add water as you say should be ok, unless there really bad, or just send them me and I will paint the ones your using for the tournament for free, so long as you have me as your sponsor if you win

 

[Rick]

GW paints can be relatively forgiving - just add a little (I mean just a couple of drops at a time) water and they should be ok. I often use blister packs to mix and thin colours in, they can be really useful. If you're going to spray undercoat the mini's - make sure you 'dry fit' the cap first - make sure they fit and will attach easily before you spray the mini - that way once it's painted, there'll be no messing around trying to drill the holes to a good depth or width!

 

[McKickaha]

Another few points;

(1) I use an old CD case for a mixing pallet, (tells you how old it is), its about a half inch thick now 8). Any flat piece of plastic will do of course.

(2) Always have two pots of water to hand, 1 "dirty" for washing paint off brushes. (always clean brush thoroughly before changing colours). The other with only clean water for watering paint down on the pallet.

(3) GW brushes are fine to start with, painted with them myself for many years, nowadays however I only use 1 dedicated to transfering paint to the pallet another dedicated to transfering clean water to the pallet and a third to mix the water/paint on the pallet. Then I use my real brushes :lol:

Point is, if you transfer paint using a brush there is an excellent chance you will get paint into the root of the hairs, which is very very bad and kills the brush very quickly, more concisely it causes the hairs to splay out and not come to a point. So if you paint with it you end up puting paint where you don't want it. The dedicated brush in the clean water is really only to keep the water clean. The pallet mixing brush is to again save the "real" brushes, ie extend their life.

Painted 150 or so NA minis in the last 3 and half months plus many minis before that and my three main painting brushes are still as they were first time I used them.

Have tried many other options to replace these dedicated brushes e.g toothpicks etc etc and I am sure other people use other things succesfully, I just find brushes work best for me.

Oh and i like your approach to trying red edging, one thing that mini painting is all about is experimentation. Only way you find out, what works and what could work next time, after tweaking the idea, (I don't believe in the no win scenario when it comes to ideas) also when to stick to the rules and when to make them beg for mercy :lol:

 

[Silvereye]

<checks to see if the sky is falling> The sun is out. In Scotland. Must be near the end of the world....

Most of the previous posters, have summed things up pretty well and there is not much more to add.

Well I routed through my supplies from a few years ago, the GW paint seemed gloopy but stirred OK, I see what you mean about thinning paint before use.

If they have already been opened, add a few drops of water to the pot, and shake/stir thoroughly. If thay are unopened, just shake thoroughly. You need to re-mix the pigment into suspension.

1) I'll need more mixing pots or a mixing pallete for thinning paint out.

You only need a mixing pot if you are making your own shades. As others have said, an old blister, wall tile, cd case, etc. will work just fine as a mixing palatte.

I also have 4 spray cans of Gw paint for basing, 1 Chaos Black, 1 Skull White and 2 Boltgun Metal (Thought it'd be good for EA ships)

Shake thouroughly before use. I'd also test spray them on something else (ideally disposable) to make sure they are still good befoe you take them anywhere near your minis. Especially the GW white, I've found that it degrades quickly, and can put on a really rough coat (clumps of paint) if you are not careful. If the spray looks funny on your test thing, just bin it and buy a new one.

The best method of spray undercoating is to build up many thin coats. Do not be tempted to just spray away.

I have an assortment of basic GW colour pots to use for my ships, and a couple of empty mixing pots but I think I'll need more. I've had them a few years but they have been unopened and kept indoors so should thin out with water, I hope? Opinion anyone?

Yep, just thin with water.

Also a small selection of GW brishes, so I seem to have a good basic kit to get started no?

They are actually suprising good as basic quality brushes.

Any advice on my paint stocks?

Should be fine.

A few more notes:

On drybrushing, keep the brush dry - don't dip it in water until you have done with that colour. Edge highlighting tends to work better for solid blocks of colour though.

If you are using metallics, clean your brush thouroughly between colours, and replace your water.

Acteone works really well if you need to start again from bare metal. Fairy Power spray is a bit more effort.

Remember, even a really badly painted mini looks better than an unpainted one. Good Luck, and post pictures.

 

[lastbesthope]

Thanks all for the advice.

@Rick re dry fitting the cap, I was going to check it fitted, then take it out and spray the mini. I could put something in the hole to stop paint gathering into it. If I leave the cap in it will bet painted and a small area of the base of the mini won't, or was it just to check the cap fitted before painting, rather than leaving it in whilst spraying that you meant???

@ Kickaha re paint transfer brush. So I should keep one brush to dollop paint from the container onto the pallete, and then clean it out between colour transfers?

I'm having thoughts about dispaosable mixing areas, CD cases seem like a good idea, plastic milk bottle lids may also work quite well.

So when a mixing area thing has gone all dry with whatever colour, is it safe to mix other colours over it?


Todays purchases of supplies include

Brushes (sable)
Brushes (Taklon)
Couple of palette trays to use as brsh rests if nothing else
Cheap glasses to use as water pots
Eye dropper for adding water
Cheap brushes for the grunt work
Some superglue

MEant to have the minis cleaned by tonight but that ain't going to happen, however I think I have freed upmy Saturday, so by the end of the weekend with luck they will be assembled at least ready for basecoat spraying if/when the weather improves.

Keep the comments and advice coming.

LBH

 

[Rick]

@Rick re dry fitting the cap, I was going to check it fitted, then take it out and spray the mini. I could put something in the hole to stop paint gathering into it. If I leave the cap in it will bet painted and a small area of the base of the mini won't, or was it just to check the cap fitted before painting, rather than leaving it in whilst spraying that you meant???

Yes - what you said first! :lol: What I tend to do is fit the cap in the hole before painting - if it needs drilling or resizing I'll do it then, before I spray it. If I spray a ship model, I'll usually put a cocktail stick in the hole to prevent a big build-up of paint (dont worry if it doesn't fit exactly - It's just to stop oodles of paint getting in there!). :wink:

 

[Rick]

@Rick re dry fitting the cap, I was going to check it fitted, then take it out and spray the mini. I could put something in the hole to stop paint gathering into it. If I leave the cap in it will bet painted and a small area of the base of the mini won't, or was it just to check the cap fitted before painting, rather than leaving it in whilst spraying that you meant???

Yes - what you said first! :lol: What I tend to do is fit the cap in the hole before painting - if it needs drilling or resizing I'll do it then, before I spray it. If I spray a ship model, I'll usually put a cocktail stick in the hole to prevent a big build-up of paint (dont worry if it doesn't fit exactly - It's just to stop oodles of paint getting in there!). :wink:

 

[McKickaha]

@ Kickaha re paint transfer brush. So I should keep one brush to dollop paint from the container onto the pallete, and then clean it out between colour transfers?

yup, thats what I do. I tend to use a farly small brush, say 00, 02 kind of size because it suits the ammount of paint I like to use at a time. I have a strong desk lamp which dries out the pallete paint pretty quickly, although you can add more water to bring it back if you wish in fact you ussually have to, but there is a point where its time to start with a new blob - LOL. Secondly as you transfer paint to the pallete inevitably you lose good paint which stays on the brush, smaller brush less wastage. Soemthing you need to play around with and find your ideal. I tend to focus a max of say 2 cruiser to 4 frigate ship minis" at a time, so small works for me.

I'm having thoughts about dispaosable mixing areas, CD cases seem like a good idea, plastic milk bottle lids may also work quite well.

Started using my current and only CD pallete way back at the beginning of BFG so opposite of disposable but lids would work fine as well and can see if you are going for large ammounts of paint then better. Again its something you need to gauge as you have a go. Couple of blobs of paint watered down has a surprising ammount of mini coverage and with bigger ammounts you are always fighting the paint drying out before you can apply it. One thing I personally like about something the size of a CD case is in a painting session I would probably use a lot of colours ao I like the available space on the CD. But again thats how I choose to paint. Couple of blues, couple of grey/whites, silver and black is enough to do a good job on an entire Hawkwood fleet so milk caps would be fine.

So when a mixing area thing has gone all dry with whatever colour, is it safe to mix other colours over it?

One reason the cd tray works well for me. If I dug hard enough would probably find the paint I used on my BFG ships- LOL

Todays purchases of supplies include

Brushes (sable)
Brushes (Taklon)
Couple of palette trays to use as brsh rests if nothing else
Cheap glasses to use as water pots
Eye dropper for adding water
Cheap brushes for the grunt work
Some superglue

Always clean your brushes throuroughly at the end of the session, particularly the "good" ones. A fine sharp point is one of the key fundementals for any mini painting. So after washing, with some soap occasionally, bring them back to a point by by either running it through thumb and finger tip twisting the brush at the same time or running through the centre crease in your palm as you make a fist.

Like I said the other day looking after brushes is a instruction in itself. May seem like a pointless chore (sorry-LOL) and believe me I ignored this kind of advice for a long time but (a) improves your painting and (b) Saves a lot on cost of new brushes.

Lke your eye dropper idea for the water.

LBH