Scouts: S-type and Serpent

[wbnc]

Bilt to deck plan measurements The configuration makes them look a little off scale, a lot of the S-types apparent size is due to its shape.

 

[fusor]

There's an airplane-like Scout now? Or is the Serpent some other kind of ship?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I like the Serpent, it looks much more real than CT illustrations.

I don't really like the Type S, the classical clean wedge looks better. I don't think we need the intakes, we don't have any jet engines.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

There's an airplane-like Scout now? Or is the Serpent some other kind of ship?

The Serpent is basically a Type S in an airframe. It's been around since CT.

 

[wbnc]

I like the Serpent, it looks much more real than CT illustrations.

I don't really like the Type S, the classical clean wedge looks better. I don't think we need the intakes, we don't have any jet engines.

but they do have fuel scoops....the serpents fuel scoops are on the underbelly. back toward the rear. From the render angle, they are hidden by the wings and main body.

 

[fusor]

There's an airplane-like Scout now? Or is the Serpent some other kind of ship?

The Serpent is basically a Type S in an airframe. It's been around since CT.

Not really sure what the point is though - the Scout is streamlined already isn't it? Why would making it look like an aeroplane help anything at all? (it's certainly not going to help it in space).

 

[wbnc]

There's an airplane-like Scout now? Or is the Serpent some other kind of ship?

The Serpent is basically a Type S in an airframe. It's been around since CT.

Not really sure what the point is though - the Scout is streamlined already isn't it? Why would making it look like an aeroplane help anything at all? (it's certainly not going to help it in space).

the Serpent is fitted with Aerofins, they give it a bit better performance in an atmosphere. better able to deal with crosswinds, turbulence and such... the wings and fins allow it to use less of its power to resist wind vaneing, and wobbling around due to its center of gravity, and center of thrust/lift being in two different places.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

There's an airplane-like Scout now? Or is the Serpent some other kind of ship?

The Serpent is basically a Type S in an airframe. It's been around since CT.

Not really sure what the point is though - the Scout is streamlined already isn't it? Why would making it look like an aeroplane help anything at all? (it's certainly not going to help it in space).

Streamlined means that the ship will not break up if it enters an atmosphere with moderate speed. The Serpent handles much better in an atmosphere, quite useful when you explore a world.

 

[fusor]

the Serpent is fitted with Aerofins, they give it a bit better performance in an atmosphere. better able to deal with crosswinds, turbulence and such... the wings and fins allow it to use less of its power to resist wind vaneing, and wobbling around due to its center of gravity, and center of thrust/lift being in two different places.

Well OK then, let's put it another way. If the Serpent is much better in atmospheres (and many worlds have atmospheres), then why isn't it the primary version of the scout ship instead of the normal Type-S wedge? (in the rules though they're both streamlined, right? So strictly according to the rules they should behave the same in the atmosphere).

Is the Serpent more expensive or something? (apparently not, in the original source material now that I dig it up from JTAS #2, it's the same price as a normal Type S. Though in Fighting Ships the Type-S is 2MCr more expensive than in Traders and Gunboats).

 

[AnotherDilbert]

the Serpent is fitted with Aerofins, they give it a bit better performance in an atmosphere. better able to deal with crosswinds, turbulence and such... the wings and fins allow it to use less of its power to resist wind vaneing, and wobbling around due to its center of gravity, and center of thrust/lift being in two different places.

Well OK then, let's put it another way. If the Serpent is much better in atmospheres (and many worlds have atmospheres), then why isn't it the primary version of the scout ship instead of the normal Type-S wedge? (in the rules though they're both streamlined, right? So strictly according to the rules they should behave the same in the atmosphere).

Is the Serpent more expensive or something? (apparently not, in the original source material now that I dig it up from JTAS #2, it's the same price as a normal Type S. Though in Fighting Ships the Type-S is 2MCr more expensive than in Traders and Gunboats).

MgT has rules for airframes (aerofins), it takes tonnage and cost, but flies better. They are not equally streamlined. The Serpent is more expensive.

 

[wbnc]

the Serpent is fitted with Aerofins, they give it a bit better performance in an atmosphere. better able to deal with crosswinds, turbulence and such... the wings and fins allow it to use less of its power to resist wind vaneing, and wobbling around due to its center of gravity, and center of thrust/lift being in two different places.

Well OK then, let's put it another way. If the Serpent is much better in atmospheres (and many worlds have atmospheres), then why isn't it the primary version of the scout ship instead of the normal Type-S wedge? (in the rules though they're both streamlined, right? So strictly according to the rules they should behave the same in the atmosphere).

Is the Serpent more expensive or something? (apparently not, in the original source material now that I dig it up from JTAS #2, it's the same price as a normal Type S. Though in Fighting Ships the Type-S is 2MCr more expensive than in Traders and Gunboats).

No practical reason, plenty of setting/role play reasons...mostly I would imagine because the "S-type mafia" so to speak. If I were playing a pilot, I would much prefer the Serpent. But then again I am a pilot in real life so I prefer a more agile ride.

 

[-Daniel-]

... then why isn't it the primary version of the scout ship instead of the normal Type-S wedge?

The Type S was the original Scout offered in Official Traveller rule books. The Serpent was something offered in a third party product that was made using a Traveller license, Paranoia Press and I believe it first was in "Scouts and Assassins". So I assume the real answer is some folks would not use 3rd party stuff, some folks got used to the Type S and just stuck to it, some folks use the Type S out of tradition, or maybe even some folks just like the wedge look.

Side note, Paranoia Press also offered a 150 ton "extended scout" version and a 200 ton merchant ship all using the Serpent core design. Deck plans were included for some in "Scouts and Assassins" and other deck plans in one of their other products, Merchants and Merchandise I think. I am sure one of the other old men could tell you for sure.

Also if you are interested in these items, RPGNow does sell PDFs of the Paranoia Press books under the GDW pool of products.

 

[wbnc]

Another issue that might be a deciding factor, that isn't addressed is that due to its sharp wedge shape the S-type would be a whole lot faster than the Serpent in Atmo. if a threat got on the tail of a Type S, t could nose up and full burn for orbit, the slick wedge would let it move at hypersonic speeds, the Serpent is supersonic at best. At low levels that difference in speed would put you over the horizon PDQ. You can't fly Nape of the earth but at low altitudes, you can get through a ground based weapons engagement area a lot faster.

at sea level on level ground, the horizon is only around 3 kilometers, a ground-based gun will lose line of sight real fast if you're going hypersonic. Even if you are flying a couple hundred meters above ground level it's less than 50 kilometers until the gun loses line of sight...spotting, locking on and firing takes time. time a hypersonic eats up in a hurry. these are more roleplay than rules and mechanics. A god bit of descriptive text into the subject would be needed.

 

[-Daniel-]

Another issue that might be a deciding factor, that isn't addressed is that due to its sharp wedge shape the S-type would be a whole lot faster than the Serpent in Atmo. if a threat got on the tail of a Type S, t could nose up and full burn for orbit, the slick wedge would let it move at hypersonic speeds, the Serpent is supersonic at best. At low levels that difference in speed would put you over the horizon PDQ. You can't fly Nape of the earth but at low altitudes, you can get through a ground based weapons engagement area a lot faster.

at sea level on level ground, the horizon is only around 3 kilometers, a ground-based gun will lose line of sight real fast if you're going hypersonic. Even if you are flying a couple hundred meters above ground level it's less than 50 kilometers until the gun loses line of sight...spotting, locking on and firing takes time. time a hypersonic eats up in a hurry. these are more roleplay than rules and mechanics. A god bit of descriptive text into the subject would be needed.

I still bet the real reason the Type S is more popular has less to do with speed and more to do with it being official GDW and the Serpent being non-canon 3rd party. :wink:

 

[wbnc]

Another issue that might be a deciding factor, that isn't addressed is that due to its sharp wedge shape the S-type would be a whole lot faster than the Serpent in Atmo. if a threat got on the tail of a Type S, t could nose up and full burn for orbit, the slick wedge would let it move at hypersonic speeds, the Serpent is supersonic at best. At low levels that difference in speed would put you over the horizon PDQ. You can't fly Nape of the earth but at low altitudes, you can get through a ground based weapons engagement area a lot faster.

at sea level on level ground, the horizon is only around 3 kilometers, a ground-based gun will lose line of sight real fast if you're going hypersonic. Even if you are flying a couple hundred meters above ground level it's less than 50 kilometers until the gun loses line of sight...spotting, locking on and firing takes time. time a hypersonic eats up in a hurry. these are more roleplay than rules and mechanics. A god bit of descriptive text into the subject would be needed.

I still bet the real reason the Type S is more popular has less to do with speed and more to do with it being official GDW and the Serpent being non-canon 3rd party. :wink:

well yeah, of course

just putting ot a possible in-game explanation.

 

[middenface]

I did a version of the Serpent. As the original design was Paranoia Press, I decided to change it a bit and call it Quetzalcoatl (geddit? Winged Serpent)
This appeared in Merchants and Cruisers. Looking at it, I can do sooo much better now and there's a few other originals that look better.

This one is not mine (Below), I think it's rather good and better that the HG one and mine. (Only credit I can find is Finnulf or Liebmann? - See folks if you post peoples art say WHERE IT CAME FROM OR WHO !)

WBNC keep it up !

 

[wbnc]

I did a version of the Serpent. As the original design was Paranoia Press, I decided to change it a bit and call it Quetzalcoatl (geddit? Winged Serpent)
This appeared in Merchants and Cruisers. Looking at it, I can do sooo much better now and there's a few other originals that look better.




This one is not mine (Below), I think it's rather good and better that the HG one and mine. (Only credit I can find is Finnulf or Liebmann? - See folks if you post peoples art say WHERE IT CAME FROM OR WHO !)


WBNC keep it up !

yep got the reference ...

I always enjoy looking at your art, and other takes on any ship I do looking at other people's versions and going...hmmm how did they do that? is a great way to work out new ideas in my head.

Looking back on pics yo did a while ago tends to make anyone grit their teeth and go...'did I do that?" I definitely Like the longer slimmer look. I was going for a beefy, working boat look with mine.

and yep always source art if at all possible, it helps people to find more of it ..and it's just polite.

The SB, militarized version would be fun to do I think.the general idea of an aircraft style, sing wing scout has los of very interesting variations to play around with.

This is one version of the idea I had a while back..a fast attack instead of a scout. Basically ,a small high-speed jump capable spacefaring ship built around a big gun.I still haven't been able to figure out how to do it in 2e yet...a 50 ton bay in a jump capable 100 ton hull is tricky

 

[Nobby-W]

There's an airplane-like Scout now? Or is the Serpent some other kind of ship?

The Serpent class is an alternative hull design for the Type-S that was originally published in the JTAS sometime around 1980. It had swing-wing airfoil surfaces for manoeuvring in an atmosphere.
Think of it as something like a YF-17 or YF-23 - an alternative design that got pipped by the winner, the standard Sulieman class. For some reason it went on to go into limited production and got bought in small er numbers by the IISS or some other party. Therefore there are small numbers in service. It's better at manoeuvring in an atmosphere than a standard Type-S, so it has a niche market of folks such as adventurers who want a small ship with that capability.

 

[Reynard]

The Serpent is also in Supplement 10: Merchant and Cruisers (the Frontiersman is in Book 3: Scouts). The standard Type s scout is about MCr27 and the Serpent is MCR29. According to M and C, the Serpent may be a substitute for the Type S on the benefit table. The Serpent give you Aerofins (+2 DM Pilot check in atmosphere), Advanced probe drones and a full air/raft hangar. You lose 2.8 dt cargo space. This would be a call by the players (I'm sure they would when informed) or a role playing opportunity when the scout player(s) roll a Scout more than once representing the service found you worthy of a better model. Oh the look on the characters' faces when they head for the landing bay they were told their 'scout is in and the deck crew say "Weren't you told?"

 

[rust2]

No practical reason, plenty of setting/role play reasons...

Yes, indeed. For example, in my Thalassa water world setting the ships have to land on a floating downport, a somewhat difficult maneuver, and a winged ship like the Serpent provides a higher setting verisimilitude than the wingless wedge of the Type S.