Running Adrift

[dmcgee1]

Newb questions regarding Adrift:

1. Once a ship has been reduced to 0 Damage (or worse), a roll is made on the Damage Table. If the result is that the ship is Running Adrift:

• 1.a. Is it moved half of it's original speed, or half of it's current speed (including being Crippled and/or any other existing critical hits)?
  
  • ex.: Would a ship with Speed 10 that is Crippled and has taken a Critical Hit that caused a -2 Speed be moved at 5, or at 2 (((10-2)/2 for being Crippled)/2 for Running Adrift)?
  1.b. Can it take more fire? In other words, once a ship has taken enough damage to have rolled on the Damage Table, can it be fired upon by any more weapons:
  
  • 1.b.1 Remaining declared fire from the ship that destroyed it this turn?
    
    1.b.2 Any other ship targeting it this turn?
    
    1.b.3 Any other ship(s) in any further turns?

2. When is a ship no longer considered to be a viable target?

 

[WereRogue]

Is it moved half of it's original speed, or half of it's current speed (including being Crippled and/or any other existing critical hits)?

Half current speed, before modifiers. (pg. 9 and 10, respectively)

1.b. Can it take more fire? In other words, once a ship has taken enough damage to have rolled on the Damage Table, can it be fired upon by any more weapons:

• 1.b.1 Remaining declared fire from the ship that destroyed it this turn?
  
  1.b.2 Any other ship targeting it this turn?
  
  1.b.3 Any other ship(s) in any further turns?
  
  2. When is a ship no longer considered to be a viable target?

• 
  
  "Once a ship has rolled on this table, it may not be attacked again." (pg. 9)
  
  You roll on the Stricken Ships table as soon as the ship reaches Zero damage, though we've been resolving all the fire from the attacking ship (since it's all declared and occurs at once, but that could be wrong, I suppose).
  
  -Ken

 

[dmcgee1]

Is it moved half of it's original speed, or half of it's current speed (including being Crippled and/or any other existing critical hits)?

Half current speed, before modifiers. (pg. 9 and 10, respectively)

Which is it - half it's current speed or half its original speed before modifiers? It can't be both.

1.b. Can it take more fire? In other words, once a ship has taken enough damage to have rolled on the Damage Table, can it be fired upon by any more weapons:

• 1.b.1 Remaining declared fire from the ship that destroyed it this turn?
  
  1.b.2 Any other ship targeting it this turn?
  
  1.b.3 Any other ship(s) in any further turns?
  
  2. When is a ship no longer considered to be a viable target?

• 
  
  "Once a ship has rolled on this table, it may not be attacked again." (pg. 9)
  
  You roll on the Stricken Ships table as soon as the ship reaches Zero damage, though we've been resolving all the fire from the attacking ship (since it's all declared and occurs at once, but that could be wrong, I suppose).
  
  -Ken

• 
  
  The only problem that I have with the "since it's all declared and occurs at once" statement, is that, technically, all fire is happening "at once" (no matter how you apply that game mechanic, all fire is occurring simultaneously during the turn). Otherwise, I could interrupt the remaining fire once I have destroyed a ship, and direct it elsewhere.
  
  By the way, thank you, very much, for the quick answer.

 

[Silvereye]

Newb questions regarding Adrift:

1. Once a ship has been reduced to 0 Damage (or worse), a roll is made on the Damage Table. If the result is that the ship is Running Adrift:

• 1.a. Is it moved half of it's original speed, or half of it's current speed (including being Crippled and/or any other existing critical hits)?
  
  • ex.: Would a ship with Speed 10 that is Crippled and has taken a Critical Hit that caused a -2 Speed be moved at 5, or at 2 (((10-2)/2 for being Crippled)/2 for Running Adrift)?
  1.b. Can it take more fire? In other words, once a ship has taken enough damage to have rolled on the Damage Table, can it be fired upon by any more weapons:
  
  • 1.b.1 Remaining declared fire from the ship that destroyed it this turn?
    
    1.b.2 Any other ship targeting it this turn?
    
    1.b.3 Any other ship(s) in any further turns?

2. When is a ship no longer considered to be a viable target?

1.a. I'd assume that it continues to drift along at half speed (minus any speed modifiers). Due to the ship having changed from being 'Crippled' to being 'Running Adrift'.

1.b. No, see the note at the end of the Striken Ships paragraph on page 9.

• 1.b.1 The remaining declared fire is used BEFORE you roll on the Damage Table.
  
  e.g. a Dargan Strike Cruiser declares it is firing on a Thentus Frigate with its forward Battle Laser, Matter Cannon and Ion Cannons. With a good critical hit, the Battle Laser causes enough damage to put the Thentus down to -2 Damage. However the Matter Cannons and the Ion Cannons must still be fired at the Thentus before you roll on the Damage Table. See the Note on the top of page 10.
  
  1.b.2 Mostly No. However, if ships in the same Squadron have declared fire on the now at negative damage target then they must complete their firing before rolling on the Damage Table. See Page 25.
  
  1.b.3 No.

 

[Locutus9956]

Simplest answers:

1) I need to double check the books but it has always been half the ships listed speed score when adrift previously, crits and the like dont effect dead ships! So, 1st ed ANSWER: Half Original Speed.

Ill get back to you on 2nd ed if someone else hasnt been definitive enough yet

2) This one is simpler as its very exactly spelled out throughout the rules and has been ruled on numerous times as well:

All declared fire from the firing SHIP is resolved before any rolls on the 'ship death' table. After that point you cannot target derelicts at all. The drifiting ship is to all extents and purposes scenery and doesnt take fire from anything (even accidentally from things like Emines I believe).

Just to clarify one very specific thing though is that fire in ACTA is NOT simultaneous. All fire is resolved sequentially, if fire from one weapon system for example, crits a targets shields/interceptors etc offline then subsequent shots are unafected by them. However all declared fire from a given ship happens before any final results like ship explosions are worked out.

 

[dmcgee1]

With regards to 1.b.1:

If declared weapons fire is resolved before rolling on the Damage Table, is the Crippled ship entitled to it's Interceptors or anything else that would be lost due to being Crippled. In other words, if it is all "simultaneous," why would the interceptors not be allowed to fire, if the Crippling came in the same round of fire from the same firing ship?

Or, am I wrong in assuming that interceptors are lost immediately upon being Crippled, even though there is more fire incoming from the same ship in the same turn?

 

[Silvereye]

The Interceptors (and Command and Fleet Carrier) Trait are lost immediately a ship becomes Crippled (additionally all other Ship Traits should be rolled for). Any further weapons systems that have been declared to fire on the Crippled vessel will not have to worry about being Intercepted.

 

[Iain McGhee]

Simplest answers:

1) I need to double check the books but it has always been half the ships listed speed score when adrift previously, crits and the like dont effect dead ships! So, 1st ed ANSWER: Half Original Speed.

Ill get back to you on 2nd ed if someone else hasnt been definitive enough yet

That's what I originally thought, for the same reasons, but I posted in Rulesmasters (over a year and a half ago) and Matt Sprange ruled that you do need to take critical effects into account when calculating the adrift speed. Dead or not, it shouldn't drift faster than it could move under power. I think 2e is the same, but I'd have to check to confirm it.

 

[dmcgee1]

The Interceptors (and Command and Fleet Carrier) Trait are lost immediately a ship becomes Crippled (additionally all other Ship Traits should be rolled for). Any further weapons systems that have been declared to fire on the Crippled vessel will not have to worry about being Intercepted.

If interceptors are lost immediately upon a ship becoming Crippled, should not a roll be made on the Damage Table immediately upon resolving that particular weapon, thereby negating any further weapons fire? After all, if results of particular hits are resolved immediately for one instance, should it not be consistent for all other situations? Again, it is my opinion that either everything should be simultaneous, or it should not - there should not be a "double standard," as it were.

 

[Silvereye]

Err why? Just because a heavy laser has crippled a ship does not mean the Pulse Cannon bolts or Rail gun slugs hurtling towards the target will magically not arrive.

Think of it as the target wilting under the sustained barrage with salvoes seconds apart.

 

[dmcgee1]

Err why? Just because a heavy laser has crippled a ship does not mean the Pulse Cannon bolts or Rail gun slugs hurtling towards the target will magically not arrive.

Think of it as the target wilting under the sustained barrage with salvoes seconds apart.

For the sake of the discussion, allow me to throw that one back at you.

In the turn that those Pulse Cannon and Rail Guns are hurtling, the interceptors are madly firing at the incoming ordinance, but "magically" shut off right before they arrive because the Beam got there "first."

I am not trying to say that I will not respect and play by the rules. What I am saying is that this area, to me, seems a bit fuzzy, logic-wise. To me, the interceptors should get to used against the incoming fire - all of it.

If you are going to draw a line as to when stuff "happens," in my opinion, that line should be after all fire from one ship/squadron - not the middle of the barrage. Therefore, you would roll on the Damage Table at the end of firing, as it is now done. Likewise, interceptors should last until all fire is resolved, then lost due to Critical hits and/or Crippling.

Drawing the line of the other side of the point, therefore would yield that the Damage Table roll is rolled immediately upon the ship dropping to < 0, with the remaining pulses and slugs finding their way to the burning/running adrift/exploding hulk, and also making moot whether the interceptors remain.

 

[Silvereye]

For the sake of the discussion, allow me to throw that one back at you.

No problem Lets see if I'm awake enough to string together a cohesive argument.

In the turn that those Pulse Cannon and Rail Guns are hurtling, the interceptors are madly firing at the incoming ordinance, but "magically" shut off right before they arrive because the Beam got there "first."

OK, all the forward weaponry on the EAS Big Stick (an Omega Class Destroyer) fire on the RN Sitting Duck (a Sullust class escort destroyer, already well damaged in a previous turn).

Beams open up on the Sitting duck as pulse cannon turrets align with the target. Detecting the Pulse Cannon locks the Sitting Duck's Interceptor AI begins plotting firing solutions while filtering out all the non dangerous debris hanging around. The Beams strike the Sitting Duck and ravage the hull as the AI completes its calculations. The lasers inflicts enough damage to Cripple the Sitting Duck (explosions rack the ship as compartments blow open to space munitions ignite etc....) The damage caused by the Laser happens fast enough that the cables connecting the AI to the Interceptors are burned through or severed as interceptor solutions are being transmitted; OR the damage causes an overload in the power systems, knocking out fuses. The power to the Interceptor batteries fails leaving them unable to track; OR a chunk of the ship with the necessary Interceptor turrets breaks free and begins to drift off into space. The Big Stick's Pulse Cannon volley continues unimpeded shattering what's left of the Sitting Duck's hull.

I am not trying to say that I will not respect and play by the rules. What I am saying is that this area, to me, seems a bit fuzzy, logic-wise. To me, the interceptors should get to used against the incoming fire - all of it.

If you are going to draw a line as to when stuff "happens," in my opinion, that line should be after all fire from one ship/squadron - not the middle of the barrage. Therefore, you would roll on the Damage Table at the end of firing, as it is now done. Likewise, interceptors should last until all fire is resolved, then lost due to Critical hits and/or Crippling.

Drawing the line of the other side of the point, therefore would yield that the Damage Table roll is rolled immediately upon the ship dropping to < 0, with the remaining pulses and slugs finding their way to the burning/running adrift/exploding hulk, and also making moot whether the interceptors remain.

Thing is questioning the rules often leads to other people going 'Hang on a minute....' and stuff happens. If you want interceptors to be available to intercept the volley simply mark all the Damage/Critical effects etc. after the Ship/Squadron has completed firing - after the last dice has been rolled. Its your game to play and enjoy, so feel free to play it how you want to play it. Like you say, the issue is simply where to put that particular line. If you do decide to play a few games with Interceptors getting the chance to let them intercept everything (sans Beams I hope) let us know how it works out. Though something you might want to consider in these damage mechanics is how GEG and Stealth might be affected, particularly in Squadron firing situations.

 

[inq101]

Don't interceptors stop working when you're crippled anyway?

 

[dmcgee1]

OK, all the forward weaponry on the EAS Big Stick (an Omega Class Destroyer) fire on the RN Sitting Duck (a Sullust class escort destroyer, already well damaged in a previous turn).

Beams open up on the Sitting duck as pulse cannon turrets align with the target. Detecting the Pulse Cannon locks the Sitting Duck's Interceptor AI begins plotting firing solutions while filtering out all the non dangerous debris hanging around. The Beams strike the Sitting Duck and ravage the hull as the AI completes its calculations. The lasers inflicts enough damage to Cripple the Sitting Duck (explosions rack the ship as compartments blow open to space munitions ignite etc....) The damage caused by the Laser happens fast enough that the cables connecting the AI to the Interceptors are burned through or severed as interceptor solutions are being transmitted; OR the damage causes an overload in the power systems, knocking out fuses. The power to the Interceptor batteries fails leaving them unable to track; OR a chunk of the ship with the necessary Interceptor turrets breaks free and begins to drift off into space. The Big Stick's Pulse Cannon volley continues unimpeded shattering what's left of the Sitting Duck's hull.

And if there are no beams in the volley? Are all weapons considered to be hitting simultaneously?

Thing is questioning the rules often leads to other people going 'Hang on a minute....' and stuff happens. If you want interceptors to be available to intercept the volley simply mark all the Damage/Critical effects etc. after the Ship/Squadron has completed firing - after the last dice has been rolled. Its your game to play and enjoy, so feel free to play it how you want to play it. Like you say, the issue is simply where to put that particular line. If you do decide to play a few games with Interceptors getting the chance to let them intercept everything (sans Beams I hope) let us know how it works out. Though something you might want to consider in these damage mechanics is how GEG and Stealth might be affected, particularly in Squadron firing situations.

Perhaps I did not state this carefully enough. The point that I was trying to convey, here, is that while I will play by the rules, as written (as well as interpreted by the community), I reserve the right to have reservations concerning the playability and logic (I know the two rarely coexist in a game setting) of said rules. After all, change can be affected when points are raised, considered, and, ultimately, decided. Hence, 2e.

I will suggest playtesting this, to my group. I will playtest my interpretation, as well as whether interceptors should be allowed after beam weapons fired, leaving them ship uncrippled.

Of course, we never use interceptors against beams. This rule is rather explicit, with no "grey area." The points I raise are to the logic of interceptors only firing at the opponents order of fire and whether they are available after a particular weapon's effects are taken into account.

 

[dmcgee1]

Don't interceptors stop working when you're crippled anyway?

With all due respect, please, read the entire thread. The point of the discussion is, when does Crippling, actually, happen. :wink:

 

[Chernobyl]

IMHO, weapon fire should be

1) declared in its entirety (for the attacking ship or squadron)

2) resolved 1 ship at a time > one weapon system at a time

3) damage applied by each weapon system, as it is resolved. This might make it tough to get e ship explosions now though, which happen at much higher values than before.

Chernobyl

 

[daishi]

hope I make sense with this

my friends & I (going by first edition & I dont see anything in 2E to make me change my mind) ruled the following way -

1) the ship firing declares all target/targets for all weapons
2) all weapons at 1 target are fired - interceptors work against all available shots eg not beams
3) any remaining shots that hit apply damage as usual
if crippled at this point interceptors no longer work as per rules

if a squadron was firing then all ships of the squadron are worked out simultaneously as above so interceptors would work against all the ships since it is not crippled yet as the damage is yet to be applied.
Although this last point has never yet had to be applied as the amount of firepower always overwhelmed the interceptors from the first ship of the squadron
Since interceptors have changed in 2E so they always have at least one dice I would now play it so it works on all ships. Once it is determined what has actually hit the ship work out damage & apply it - if crippled then interceptors of course now no longer work.

after the damage has been applied & the ship has been determined to be crippled any further ships firing this round fire at the ship as a crippled one ie no interceptors

This made it easier to make sure if a ship was firing it did so as not to "accidently" forget to fire a ship since the extra firepower might make it explode

 

[dmcgee1]

So far, daishi and Chernobyl echo my sentiments. After all, that is what makes sense. I would, at this point, feel that this is in need of an official ruling.

 

[jjdodger]

I tend to agree with Dashi - You declare all targets, then roll all attack dice for all weapons for that ship/squadron, resolving damage/criticals for each, but do not apply "effects" yet, ie, even if the ship was crippled after the 1st weapon, any interceptors would still be there against the rest of the weapons. Once all damage has been resolved from this attack, THEN apply all damage "effects", ie, thresholds, stricken, criticals, etc. When the next ship/squadron attacks that ship, if it was crippled, there would be no interceptors, etc, to worry about.

 

[Iain McGhee]

That's how I've been playing too. Although weapon systems from a ship are resolved "in turn", I take it that they are firing over such a short space of time that the effects from a particular ship's barrage only take effect after all the attacks from that ship or squadron are resolved, including thresholds and trait loss.