Running a business?

[Dan True]

Hi there.

One of my players has brought an old and broken down inn, and is refurnishing it and planning to hire people to run it in the day-to-day workings. I am however curious as to mechanics for owning a business, and have been thinking about possibilities.
Do any of you know of established rules for this in some book / S&P article? If so, please give a yell.

Otherwise, how does this sound:

The business is tied to a specific primary skill, (Craft(barkeep) in this case) and a secondary skill (Commerce in this case). Since craft is tied to item creation, one could introduce a Profession skill, but I haven't bothered yet. The business also has some Wealth Modifier (WM), depending on type, location, etc. For instance an alchemical shop might have WM of 5 SP and a run-down brothel might have a WM of 2 CP.

The idea is then that you earn % in the primary skill * WM per week. This is fairly static, but special circumstances (unruly economy, major trade fair etc.) might offer bonusses/penalties, or even call for a test if the circumstance is especially chaotic.

Furthermore, call for a test of the secondary skill. If it is successful, add the % value of the secondary skill * WM to the amount earned. A crit adds double this, a fumble substracts instead.

These earnings are then what the inn have earned AFTER normal expenses (delivery of ale, payment of staff etc.). The business can loose or gain WM depending on advertising, location, changes in available wares, hiring a pretty barmaid etc..

So, for the inn in question:
The inn has a WM of 1 SP, since it has an good location, but is not very fancy and not very big. The barkeep has 75% in Craft(Barkeep) and 35% in Commerce. Each week the inn earns a total of 75 SP. If the Commerce test is successful, the Inn earns 110 SP instead (75 + 35), because they succeeded in negotiating a better delivery of ale this week and hosted a dinner party which tipped well.

How does this sound to you? Any obvious wrongs with this approach?

 

[Titus]

If the players don't want to be involved in the running of it, then what you proposed sounds good.

If you don't like Craft(barkeep), how about Lore(Barkeeping) or Lore(Innkeeping)? Lore skills aren't all academic, and knowledge of running an inn seems a good fit for a Lore.

 

[Dan True]

If the players don't want to be involved in the running of it, then what you proposed sounds good.

In this case, she will just hire one to maintain the inn and run the day-to-day workings. If she ever decides to get more involved, I'll use her Craft(Barkeep) instead (which she will need to learn), and involve her more in some day-to-day problems. This part is just for the pure economic part.

If you don't like Craft(barkeep), how about Lore(Barkeeping) or Lore(Innkeeping)? Lore skills aren't all academic, and knowledge of running an inn seems a good fit for a Lore.

That would be a possibility.

 

[mwsasser]

And just think of the adventure possibilities from owning an inn. People walking into the inn trying to sell old maps, protection rackets trying to get money out of you, bar fights that destroy the place and you try to collect damages, a secret passage discovered in the inn going underground.

Those suggestions are just the tip of the iceberg. Player owned resources are a goldmine.

 

[Dan True]

And just think of the adventure possibilities from owning an inn. People walking into the inn trying to sell old maps, protection rackets trying to get money out of you, bar fights that destroy the place and you try to collect damages, a secret passage discovered in the inn going underground.

Those suggestions are just the tip of the iceberg. Player owned resources are a goldmine.

Yup, one of the reasons I'm glad she's buying one

 

[Simulacrum]

How does your system calibrate to average living costs? As the innkeeper (and family?) have to live off its earnings, pay any additional staff and buy stock, does it generate any money to pay to the landlord? If they don't make enough to pay the owning PC some rent, what rights does the PC have to evict, enslave or otherwise get his money? What rate of return does he expect?

 

[mwsasser]

If they don't make enough to pay the owning PC some rent, what rights does the PC have to evict, enslave or otherwise get his money? What rate of return does he expect?

Debtor prisons were around during medieval europe, no reason to imagine they wouldn't be in a fantasy version of a similar setting.

 

[Dan True]

How does your system calibrate to average living costs? As the innkeeper (and family?) have to live off its earnings, pay any additional staff and buy stock, does it generate any money to pay to the landlord? If they don't make enough to pay the owning PC some rent, what rights does the PC have to evict, enslave or otherwise get his money? What rate of return does he expect?

Well, I haven't though much about these things, as my campaign takes place in Sharn in Eberron - so the staff most likely have an apartment somewhere, and recieve a pay such that they can afford to their rent and living expenses. Their agreement will have been fixed in a contract, as in the present day, and the law will uphold it.

This was the income from the business, average living cost will be applied after that, as aaccording to the percentage rules in the core rulebook.

But the things you point out are very valid, if the system should be used more generally, and will have to be though of in that case.

 

[Mixster]

Yeah, the employees all thought the clause in the contract saying: "anyone who doesn't do as I tell them, will become lizard food". Was just some legal mumbo jumbo. *snicker* *snicker*.

 

[Titus]

How does your system calibrate to average living costs? As the innkeeper (and family?) have to live off its earnings, pay any additional staff and buy stock, does it generate any money to pay to the landlord? If they don't make enough to pay the owning PC some rent, what rights does the PC have to evict, enslave or otherwise get his money? What rate of return does he expect?

I took Dan True's method to represent net profit. I think the innkeeper is included in "staff". If not, then that could be an issue. But for a simple, "how much did my inn make for me this week?" system it feels right. If player starts "managing" the place, Dan will probably come up with a lot more detailed system.

If the PC wants to live an extravagant life style, they better own several of these establishments.

If the PC and friends take up the best rooms in the place when they are in town, the week's profits probably take a hit.

 

[DamonJynx]

Just a thought :idea: A Barkeep or whatever is, IMO, basically a merchant, just one who specialises in food and drink, for which there is already a profession, why not use that and the appropriate skills; influence, evaluate and commerce etc?

 

[Dan True]

Just a thought :idea: A Barkeep or whatever is, IMO, basically a merchant, just one who specialises in food and drink, for which there is already a profession, why not use that and the appropriate skills; influence, evaluate and commerce etc?

Well, these skills are of course important - and the barkeep will certainly need to have them - but I wanted to have one single skill to tie them all together, for various reasons:
- I didn't want to have to add up multiple skills when doing this calculation
- I do believe that a salt trader and a barkeep essentially needs the same set of skills, but I also believe that they apply them very differently. You might be a very good trader, but an extremely bad innkeeper because you don't know who sells the best ale, don't know how to talk to people with broken hearts, and don't hear nearly enough rumours about local events to make adventurers tip you

- Dan

 

[Mixster]

- I do believe that a salt trader and a barkeep essentially needs the same set of skills, but I also believe that they apply them very differently. You might be a very good trader, but an extremely bad innkeeper because you don't know who sells the best ale, don't know how to talk to people with broken hearts, and don't hear nearly enough rumours about local events to make adventurers tip you

I think a Salt trader would need to know those things as well.
He might not know who the best ale trader is, but he'll surely know the best ale when he tastes it (through evaluate). And he might not always have been able to listen to broken hearts (hence why he is selling salt), but he could probably learn it since he has a high influence score, and the thing about the rumours he can just make up anyway. Nothing bad ever came from telling a bunch of adventures that you heard a story of a demon in a nearby forest.

 

[Dan True]

I think a Salt trader would need to know those things as well.
He might not know who the best ale trader is, but he'll surely know the best ale when he tastes it (through evaluate). And he might not always have been able to listen to broken hearts (hence why he is selling salt), but he could probably learn it since he has a high influence score, and the thing about the rumours he can just make up anyway. Nothing bad ever came from telling a bunch of adventures that you heard a story of a demon in a nearby forest.

I never said he couldn't learn it. And I agree, they do share the same skill set and I think a salt trader would have a much easier time learning to be an innkeeper than, say an engineer. But a person who's been an innkeeper for 20 years still know some stuff that a person who's been a salt trader for 20 years won't know - and vice versa - even though they will most likely both know a lot of the same more general business-stuff (such as being good hagglers and keep a budget). Hence the need for some skill to set them apart and represent more profession-specific knowledge.
If I didn't tie it to a profession-specific skill, then any merchant could simply abandon the business he's been in for 20 years, and start another different business with no problems at all... And realistically, he should spent some time learning the lay of the land of this new business.

- Dan

 

[Simulacrum]

As a sense check on your system:

Without doing lots of brain-aching stuff to work out the returns ground up (which is difficult, I have just done this for agriculture): suggest you take the price paid for the business as a starting point, and assume that because the asset itself is something that (unlike land investment) may not be re-sellable at the same value that was paid for it, the business should deliver to the owner an annual return in excess of 5% after all costs.

So one way of just doing a quick annual test for profits if the PC (or his employee/tenant publican) makes the necessary Craft or Commerce roll, that year's income should be [asset purchase price] x [1D6+4%]. If the result is a critical, go for x [1D6+10%]. Failure perhaps [1D6-1%], fumble - the business has lost [D6+4%] x [asset purchase price] in trading. You could whip up a "trading conditions" table to modify either the skill rolls or the net return.

Of course mean local authorities are unlikely to tax income - a pretty modern idea - but instead to tax property (and the inn would count) - whether it is generating profits or not.

 

[DamonJynx]

And realistically, he should spent some time learning the lay of the land of this new business.

- Dan

Very true. I was just thinking of this as a starting point and that the base mechanics for "merchants" even though they're tied to different specialities would be similar in that they all need good, insight, influence, evaluate and commerce skills. Having a decent stat in CHA won't hurt either.

I haven't read through it properly, but you could probably use some of the techniques in Empires regarding growth, expenditure and income for your PC's business by scaling down the numbers - after all the major difference between small and large business' is just the numbers - and what's an Empire except a really big business!