Rune magic in Glorantha
- Thread starter weasel_fierce
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Addressing, the problem of cult's rune spells, I consider two ideas:
- the cult provide some sort of token (a sword, an amulet) wich serve as focus for the cult's rune spells (and only them), waiving the need for the runes.
- or the link to the god directly provide integration of his runes, pertaining to access the rune spells taught by the cult.
In the second option, breaking the link with the god would mean losing the runespells. In RQ3, you had to expand a point of POW to establish the link with the god, wich is exactly what you do with rune integration (I did not find the same in MRQ, did I miss it?).
The two ways will need a specific skill to cast the spells, be it Theology of the God, or Runecasting (spells of God).
- the cult provide some sort of token (a sword, an amulet) wich serve as focus for the cult's rune spells (and only them), waiving the need for the runes.
- or the link to the god directly provide integration of his runes, pertaining to access the rune spells taught by the cult.
In the second option, breaking the link with the god would mean losing the runespells. In RQ3, you had to expand a point of POW to establish the link with the god, wich is exactly what you do with rune integration (I did not find the same in MRQ, did I miss it?).
The two ways will need a specific skill to cast the spells, be it Theology of the God, or Runecasting (spells of God).
To learn a spell, just meditate and / or pray for the needed amount of time on the meaning of the rune and / or your god in the world. A teacher / shaman / priest helps you on the way by showing magic signs and invocations to manifest the power (hence the money cost). He will also guide you on the personal and spiritual journey to awake your magic.
In the current rules as written one can only assume Rune Magic comes from the rune itself, as all rune spells from one rune are tied to that runes runcasting skill. You can have a Runecasting(Metal) at 94%, and as soon as you learn Bludgeon you can cast it at 94%. So the spells power has to be tied to the rune itself, and the better your mastery of that rune the better you are at all spells tied to that rune - even if you don't know them.
So rune spells must represent understanding different ways of manifesting the power inherent in runes. Think of it as Origami. You may be a master at origami, but no one has ever shown you the pattern to fold a Spotted Mongoose. Once you know the formula, you will be able to make Origami Mongeese like a master.
As such, I think a rune spell can be taught just like a skill, by someone who is a master at runecasting the rune in question and who knows the spell.
If you allow cult spells to be cast without integrating the appropriate rune then the source of the spell must be different. I don't have Cults 2 but I am assuming Spirits are the source of spirit spells, so rune spells should differ. If we allow cult rune spells to be cast with the theology skill then presumably the source of the spell is directly from the god just like divine magic.
I am a bit wary of using the theology method though. The 'balance' between the magic types is the ease of learning them. Divine Magic is powerful but one use. It still seems to me kinda hamstrung in the new rules BUT it is by far the easiest to learn. One skill, all spells. A rune magician on the other hand can be a pretty potent mage with just a few decent runecasting skills, and his spells are re-usable. A sorcerer clearly has the greatest potential power, but they have to learn all the manipulation skills and each spell separately. With 3-4 skill increases an adventure those get spread real thin real fast. The divine magician can learn his Theology, a Weapon, throw a roll at dodge or persistence or resilience, and take up a hobby, like enchanting or playing the lute. Using one skill to cast divine spells AND a bunch rune spells is very powerful ju-ju indeed.
So rune spells must represent understanding different ways of manifesting the power inherent in runes. Think of it as Origami. You may be a master at origami, but no one has ever shown you the pattern to fold a Spotted Mongoose. Once you know the formula, you will be able to make Origami Mongeese like a master.
As such, I think a rune spell can be taught just like a skill, by someone who is a master at runecasting the rune in question and who knows the spell.
If you allow cult spells to be cast without integrating the appropriate rune then the source of the spell must be different. I don't have Cults 2 but I am assuming Spirits are the source of spirit spells, so rune spells should differ. If we allow cult rune spells to be cast with the theology skill then presumably the source of the spell is directly from the god just like divine magic.
I am a bit wary of using the theology method though. The 'balance' between the magic types is the ease of learning them. Divine Magic is powerful but one use. It still seems to me kinda hamstrung in the new rules BUT it is by far the easiest to learn. One skill, all spells. A rune magician on the other hand can be a pretty potent mage with just a few decent runecasting skills, and his spells are re-usable. A sorcerer clearly has the greatest potential power, but they have to learn all the manipulation skills and each spell separately. With 3-4 skill increases an adventure those get spread real thin real fast. The divine magician can learn his Theology, a Weapon, throw a roll at dodge or persistence or resilience, and take up a hobby, like enchanting or playing the lute. Using one skill to cast divine spells AND a bunch rune spells is very powerful ju-ju indeed.
Been thinking about allowing characters to invent Rune Spells.
Inventing would need a deep understanding of the rune, so a limit of 1 magnitude per 10% over 75% casting skill.
The character with a Rune casting of 109% could uncover/invent 1 to 3 magnitude ((109-75)/10 =3.4 ) spells associated to his Rune.
He can still learn new spells of any magnitude from other teachers... though should the act of learning a spell associated with rune grant some insight into the rune casting skill also.
Give the character a base chance of his Rune magic - (magnitude x10%) to create the spell with a cost of 100 penies per magnitude of research material and a weeks worth of time. Failure means the cash/time is expended and no spell is gained.
Its cheesy but think I'll run with it for pure rune magic.
Divine cults get their rune spells from spell spirits, and may cast spells without integration at their theology. Other spells with runes not owned by the cult require runes to be integrated.
Shaman as the Cog2.
Inventing would need a deep understanding of the rune, so a limit of 1 magnitude per 10% over 75% casting skill.
The character with a Rune casting of 109% could uncover/invent 1 to 3 magnitude ((109-75)/10 =3.4 ) spells associated to his Rune.
He can still learn new spells of any magnitude from other teachers... though should the act of learning a spell associated with rune grant some insight into the rune casting skill also.
Give the character a base chance of his Rune magic - (magnitude x10%) to create the spell with a cost of 100 penies per magnitude of research material and a weeks worth of time. Failure means the cash/time is expended and no spell is gained.
Its cheesy but think I'll run with it for pure rune magic.
Divine cults get their rune spells from spell spirits, and may cast spells without integration at their theology. Other spells with runes not owned by the cult require runes to be integrated.
Shaman as the Cog2.
gamesmeister
Banded Mongoose
I was thinking of shoehorning the entire RQ2 or RQ3 spirit magic system back into MRQ, but decided that was a bit excessive. Instead I'm thinking of the following changes to the current system:
Incidentally, I only recently noticed that POW x 5 is already used in the game to determine the range of a spell - makes you wonder why they felt they couldn't use it anywhere else...
- Remove runes as the source of the spell, and replace with foci. If the foci is not available at the time of casting for whatever reason, casting the spell requires three times as many CAs as listed.
Chance to successfully cast a rune spell equals POW x 5%
Resists will be done using the Resistance table, MPs vs MPs. Either that or an opposed roll, with opponents rolling against current MPs x 5%
Overcharging still works as printed, except that each magic point improves your chance of winning on the resistance table by 10%. In the same way, Magical Defense reduces your chance by 5% per point.
Incidentally, I only recently noticed that POW x 5 is already used in the game to determine the range of a spell - makes you wonder why they felt they couldn't use it anywhere else...
gamesmeister said:
How exactly is that NOT shoehorning the old system into MRQ?
Sounds pretty similar to me. Not that I am criticising what you are proposing - it sounds like it would work very well. Hasn't playtesting been going on for almost 30 years now?
The one problem with your approach is you must also change divine magic in MRQ. The Dedicated POW rule means divine magicians will only ever have a few MP's and so will be virtually defenseless against rune magic.
Not that dumping Dedicated POW is a bad thing. I plan on doing it.
gamesmeister
Banded Mongoose
Lol, that also occurred to me approximately 10 seconds after posting...
However, there's a number of aspects of MRQ rune magic that I'm keeping, specifically the casting modifiers, overcharging spells, CA's to cast, the difference between progressive spells and variable spells from previous editions, magical defense, and all the traits allocated to each spell. And as mentioned, I haven't decided whether to use the resistance table or opposed rolls when resisting spells - the more I think about it, the more likely I am to use the latter. That means the only real differences are the spellcasting roll and the use of foci over runes.
With regards to Divine Magic, I intend to use the system as is. However, I'll also allow Rune Priests to permanently sacrifice POW in exchange for reusable spells, just as in previous editions. This gives them the best of both worlds - sacrifice for re-usable common divine magic, and temporarily learn that Face Chaos spell for a trip to Snakepipe Hollow. I do think the MRQ system is far friendlier to Initiates than previous versions.
Lastly, I'm going to go back to experience checks and POW gain rolls for character development, as I prefer that method of character progression. Allocating experience is far more likely to create one-dimensional characters, specialising in certain areas...you might as well use character classes and be done with it.
However, there's a number of aspects of MRQ rune magic that I'm keeping, specifically the casting modifiers, overcharging spells, CA's to cast, the difference between progressive spells and variable spells from previous editions, magical defense, and all the traits allocated to each spell. And as mentioned, I haven't decided whether to use the resistance table or opposed rolls when resisting spells - the more I think about it, the more likely I am to use the latter. That means the only real differences are the spellcasting roll and the use of foci over runes.
With regards to Divine Magic, I intend to use the system as is. However, I'll also allow Rune Priests to permanently sacrifice POW in exchange for reusable spells, just as in previous editions. This gives them the best of both worlds - sacrifice for re-usable common divine magic, and temporarily learn that Face Chaos spell for a trip to Snakepipe Hollow. I do think the MRQ system is far friendlier to Initiates than previous versions.
Lastly, I'm going to go back to experience checks and POW gain rolls for character development, as I prefer that method of character progression. Allocating experience is far more likely to create one-dimensional characters, specialising in certain areas...you might as well use character classes and be done with it.
Ian Cooper
Mongoose
Rurik said:
Well if you forced people learning those spells from cults (let's call them Battle Magic in this context for old times sake) to increase their ability for each one individually then you get the balance of this approach being much harder than rune magic.
That would then dovetail with Robin's attempts to make rune magic work (the suggestion in Glorantha the 2nd Age that rune magic was introduced by the God Learners 200 years ago, will die out at the end of the age and be replaced with other methods of doing battle magic that are harder).
Now have the traditionalists object to Rune Magic as some sort of God Learner 'strip mining' of magic from the world and you have an opportunity for conflict. if the heroes find a rune will they be tempted by God Learner magic, if they worship the old ways what will their priest say ('It is a magic crystal my child, you can attune it but must never integrate it'). You could even provide rules for using magic crystals the 'old way'.
We then get Robin's fix with for the major problem with Rune Magic (if magic is a resource in short supply our history tells us that it will be the source of conflict but right here in the 2nd Age is the only time we have seen such conflict).
That would work for me as a resolution. The God Learners figured out how to take the old magic crystals which people were just using for MP batteries and rather than attune them, integrate them. It fits with the theme of the GLs taking a fast and easy way to power.
[Now the only thing lacking is to stop folk magic and battle magic being seen as two seperate systems, but just two lists of spells one of interest to adventures and one of interest to farmers]
Ian Cooper
Mongoose
Rurik said:
Out of interest common magic in heroquest is defined by not having an 'Otherworld' origin. It can come from the person themselves (talent) or be a feat, charm, or spell (divine, spirit, or sorcery) provided by a divine entity native to this world.
So describing rune magic as magic that is not powered by the Otherworld but by the magical energy of this world would work.
As for teaching, I would treat it as a skill that can be shared like any other (that fits with how this has been handled in Glorantha in the past).
One problem I find with the system that hasn't been mentioned.
What character has the time/money/etc to train up their runecasting skill across a broad range of spells?
With each rune only providing 1 or 2 useful spells, runes could be as common as pebbles, but I can't imagine that it would be time/effective to learn more than a few spells.
Our party has found it more useful to get items enchanted with spell matrices, so the whole runes=rune spell link is effectively broken. It's an expensive solution, so we don't have a lot, but beats the alternative, especially as it means we can all 'know' that spell. We still like them for their effects, just no longer see them as a route to spellcasting.
Anyone else found this, or are we missing something?
What character has the time/money/etc to train up their runecasting skill across a broad range of spells?
With each rune only providing 1 or 2 useful spells, runes could be as common as pebbles, but I can't imagine that it would be time/effective to learn more than a few spells.
Our party has found it more useful to get items enchanted with spell matrices, so the whole runes=rune spell link is effectively broken. It's an expensive solution, so we don't have a lot, but beats the alternative, especially as it means we can all 'know' that spell. We still like them for their effects, just no longer see them as a route to spellcasting.
Anyone else found this, or are we missing something?
weasel_fierce
Mongoose
No, you're pretty spot on. My guess is that there's more of a "good spellcaster vs good skills" type of deal going on. One more argument for switching to "spells by cult" I think
I have not yet playtested, but while creating my houserules, almost the first thing I did was to widen the number of spells associated with each Rune. I will also be allowing, in line with suggestions made on the Forum, Spells from Associated (or possibly even Friendly) Cults to be taught to Cult initiates. My reasoning is that in a world where magic is integral, then a number of Cults will have created a way to achieve the same Magical effect, and you would want an ally to be able to help you in an emergency.
frogspawner
Mongoose
I'd be very interested to see which runes you've added to which spells. I've been doing much the same, adding as few runes as possible to allow the cult spell-lists as in RQ2/3. (I have what I think is quite a good list, which does the job by only adding one or two runes to each, but no time to type it up just now!)
BTW, my justification for allowing cult members to cast spells of their gods runes (and associates, at initiate level) is that the cults have been gathering these runes (crystals of divine blood) for hundreds of years and sacrificing (returning?) them to their gods, with the side-effect of forming the special link. How's that?
BTW, my justification for allowing cult members to cast spells of their gods runes (and associates, at initiate level) is that the cults have been gathering these runes (crystals of divine blood) for hundreds of years and sacrificing (returning?) them to their gods, with the side-effect of forming the special link. How's that?
frogspawner
Mongoose
That's fine for non-Gloranthan settings, which can (and should) be a bit different.
And for Glorantha, just add one/two alternative runes per spell and allow learning spells of cult/associated runes. That widens it admirably, so the established RQ2/3 cult spell lists are possible again.
And for Glorantha, just add one/two alternative runes per spell and allow learning spells of cult/associated runes. That widens it admirably, so the established RQ2/3 cult spell lists are possible again.
I read again the rules for rune magic and noticed some strange things. Did you understand like me ?
According to Runes paragraph, p 68, a PC could cast Befuddle using the Man rune and his Runecasting (Disorder) skill.
Each spell takes a number of combat actions to cast, wich make DEX the most important characteristic for magicians. Shouldn't it be INT or POW.
The initiates don't have access to Divine Intervention !
According to Runes paragraph, p 68, a PC could cast Befuddle using the Man rune and his Runecasting (Disorder) skill.
Each spell takes a number of combat actions to cast, wich make DEX the most important characteristic for magicians. Shouldn't it be INT or POW.
The initiates don't have access to Divine Intervention !
frogspawner
Mongoose
Personally, no. I don't see any need for it.Yoda300 said:
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