Rune magic in Glorantha

[frogspawner]

The rules for Runemagic in MRQ are very customisable to give the flavour of magic you prefer...
Characters who join a Cult at the initiate (or equivalent) or above level are automatically attuned to the Rune(s) of that cult for purposes of spell casting....

Spot on! This sort of interpretation is what MRQ needs to be compatible with the established flavour of Glorantha. Personally, I'd extend the principle to permit spells of associated cults as well.

I look forward to seeing a list of spells with revised rubnic associations.

 

[simonh]

Second, and it's more serious, it was well known that the rune system in previous edition of RQ was a godlearnerism, used to explain the monomyth (see, two gods with the same runes, so there are the same god). It was said this was flawed. In HQ ( :evil: ), every deity, hero or whatever has his own rune.

Greg has always said (as far back as the early 90s to my personaly verifiable knowledge) that in Glorantha different cultures use different magical symbols, and the God Learners compiled their collection of standard runes by identifying common features of the runes with similar meanings and magical functions. The HQ proliferation of runes is simply Greg finally showing us what those culturally variant runes look like.

For Gloranthan purists this means that the rune magic and Rune Integration rules in MRQ are also a simplification and abstraction of 'actual' gloarantha for game purposes. You could re-introduce some of the complexity and flavour by introducing variations on some of the runes, and perhaps slight variations in the spells they are used with as well, but that could get quite complex.

I've nothign against the Rune Magic implementation per se, but I'm not particularly fond of it either from a gamist or world flavour point of view.

 

[Voriof]

Second, and it's more serious, it was well known that the rune system in previous edition of RQ was a godlearnerism, used to explain the monomyth (see, two gods with the same runes, so there are the same god). It was said this was flawed. In HQ ( :evil: ), every deity, hero or whatever has his own rune.

Tell us how you really feel about HeroQuest. But that said, each cult and magical society does have its own identifying rune - something that Greg has said for many, many years (far back enough that it was back in the days of RQIII - we were discussing tatoos at the time). These cult are usually combinations or local variations which draw upon some underlying principles.

Edit: As Simon notes, these underlying similiaries were distilled into the core runes known by the God Learners though this may not have been an artifact of their creation/exploration/meddling. The primal powers date from the simplest ages when there was little else than the ancient Powers.

Who knows? Maybe the Glorantha Court is just a God Learner conceit.

Jeff - who is conscious of Rule 9. :roll:

 

[Ian Cooper]

When Rune Magic was first mooted for MRQ a lot of us pushed back. It just did not fit with a fundamental aspect of Glorantha that everyone has access to magic. The inclusion of runes seemed to make it unlikely that farmers, shepherds, and housewives had useful magic. But we know they do. So a game conceit - it is RuneQuest we have to search for runes - really did not seem to fit with Glorantha.

So Glorantha the 2nd Age seems to have tried to adjust this, suggesting that the 'folk magic' of these everyday people is just not described and that these runes are a side-effect of God Learner meddling.

For me it still whiffs or trying to shoehorn a game idea - let's make players hunt for power ups - into a fantasy world. Fundamenally I expect it is symptomatic of why I am far more sold on HeroQuest than RuneQuest and unlikely to use RuneQuest for gaming.

It is shame they could not just have been reverted to magic crystals for the Gloranthan setting, which would have fit well with the existing knowledge of the world. Pity as things like the material on Timinits and Magic of Glorantha really seem to have shown how to added to Glorantha, that the whole rune magic thing seems to have gone so badly wrong.

 

[weasel_fierce]

For me it still whiffs or trying to shoehorn a game idea - let's make players hunt for power ups - into a fantasy world. Fundamenally I expect it is symptomatic of why I am far more sold on HeroQuest than RuneQuest and unlikely to use RuneQuest for gaming.

Heroquest is a great game, but its not like ignoring the rune part is hard.

 

[Banned Beetle]

HeroWars was Stafford's biggest gregging ever. Produced some good background stuff (got most of the books), but what a useless system. MRQ is full of flaws, but at least it's a system that can be houseruled into something workable.

Trif.

 

[weasel_fierce]

yeah, herowars was rather painfull, though it seems it was a case of print now or print never.

heroquest is a lot more functional, though it takes a while to make sense of it

 

[frogspawner]

You made sense of HeroWars? Well done! Yet you prefer RQ, can I assume...?

To answer your original question, if I had to play using MRQ, I'd handle rune (i.e. battle) magic by trying to stick to the rules as written - but with extensive interpretations:
- Runes are very rare
- Runes are crystals of godly blood
- Runes, when found, are normally sacrificed to the gods (and disappear)
- Lay members can learn spells of their cult's runes
- Initiates can learn spells of associated cults' runes
- Only Rune-Lords/Priests may be deemed powerful enough to attune a Rune
- If a Rune is attuned, it is absorbed into the host's bloodstream (and re-crystalizes only upon their death)
- The location/situation of an attuned Rune can be found via Divination by cults of such runes - so they'll often initiate Quests to retrieve these Runes.

MRQ has a few nice ideas (separate combat mechanisms for specials/criticals; initiative not strike-ranks; rewards for good roleplaying) but I'm not convinced it's better than RQ2/3.

 

[weasel_fierce]

It does make sense, but you have to throw out a lot of normal assumptions for it to work.

I like RQ because its what I grew up with, and because its tangible, in your face and "blow by blow"

 

[Rurik]

You made sense of HeroWars? Well done! Yet you prefer RQ, can I assume...?

To answer your original question, if I had to play using MRQ, I'd handle rune (i.e. battle) magic by trying to stick to the rules as written - but with extensive interpretations:
- Runes are very rare
- Runes are crystals of godly blood
- Runes, when found, are normally sacrificed to the gods (and disappear)
- Lay members can learn spells of their cult's runes
- Initiates can learn spells of associated cults' runes
- Only Rune-Lords/Priests may be deemed powerful enough to attune a Rune
- If a Rune is attuned, it is absorbed into the host's bloodstream (and re-crystalizes only upon their death)
- The location/situation of an attuned Rune can be found via Divination by cults of such runes - so they'll often initiate Quests to retrieve these Runes.

MRQ has a few nice ideas (separate combat mechanisms for specials/criticals; initiative not strike-ranks; rewards for good roleplaying) but I'm not convinced it's better than RQ2/3.

I see it kinda the opposite way. To use runes and rune magic as written in Glorantha they should be pretty common. Battle Magic/Spirit Magic was very common in RQ 2/3, making runes rare is is only going to make the 'common' magic in MRQ even more different than previous versions.

 

[weasel_fierce]

of course there's always the option that magic isnt actually as common in the second age. Blame it on the god learners. Maybe they broke it

 

[Banned Beetle]

Or, bring back spirit magic, treating runes as powercrystals giving some benefit to attune, but no spells. Will be interesting to see what they do with the shaman rules though.

Trif.

 

[simonh]

My main problem with Rune Magic is the highly dubious association of spells with runes. Bladesharp required the Metal Rune and not Death, for example. Maybe that makes sense from a physics point of view (swords are made of metal), but it makes no sense from a mythic or symbolic point of view which is what's important when we're talking about magic. And anyway, not all edged weapons are made of metal.

That's just one, but there are many others. Fixing this is non-trivial. It would mean writing up an entire alternate table of spells and runes. Beter perhaps to just ditch the runes completely.

Simon Hibbs

 

[frogspawner]

To use runes and rune magic as written in Glorantha they should be pretty common.

Fear not! My suggestions above make spells as common as you'd like (even Lay members can get them!) without having to have actual Runes all over the place. And they are just interpretations, so there's no significant change to the written MRQ rules.

My main problem with Rune Magic is the highly dubious association of spells with runes... Fixing this is non-trivial. It would mean writing up an entire alternate table of spells and runes.

However, since I agree with simonh, I would probably change from the MRQ rules (or is it just extending them?) with such an alternative table, which would allow Humakti to have Bladesharp, for example! Who wouldn't?

 

[Exubae]

My suggestions above make spells as common as you'd like (even Lay members can get them!) without having to have actual Runes all over the place. And they are just interpretations, so there's no significant change to the written MRQ rules.

Kind of like the idea that a cult should provide its 'runes' to all its worships initiate level and above (not actual integration just allowing access to casting of Rune magic.)

Generally speaking your going to be initaited into a cult if your from a thesis background, even if it is only Barntar or another god aspect of a profession.
Which is going to provide you with the runes to use the Rune magic associated to the god.

Perhaps introducing household gods and heroes might help that provide a rune, a skill, and a single suitable spell (though it'll starting to cross into spirit magics sphere)

It would mean writing up an entire alternate table of spells and runes. Beter perhaps to just ditch the runes completely.

On the Rune association - it might be cool to get an alternative/extended association list for runes to spells on the forum/wiki. It seems a shame to ditch the associations...
Saying that I still haven't got my head round a logical way Rune spells should be created in game - from a character/narative perspective that is.

 

[soltakss]

The main problem I have with Runes/Spells is that they are too broad and often don't fit the function of cults.

So, the example given - Bladesharp - is a Metal Rune, so cults with the Metal Rune get it. If you make it into a Death Rune Spell then cults such as Humakt can get it, but so can Zorak Zoran and all the Hunter Cults.

Personally, I would keep cults as having certain cult spells that they teach. If characters want to get other spells then fair enough, but they'd have to get the Runes and learn the spells.

Personally, I am against the idea that all Death cults get access to all Death Runespells and so on. Similarly, someone who has a Death Rune shouldn't necessarily be able to get all Death Runespells.

I'd scrap Runes completely and get away from the literal "Rune Quest".

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Another thought to throw into the mix...

At one stage during discussion of Steve Perrin's early drafts of the Rune Magic system on and off the Playtest Group, it was suggested that everyone started with one Rune integrated - normally the Man Rune for humans. I think this was just as a result of being born - Initiating into a cult could give you additional runes as well...

Also I'm not sure the intention is that access to (eg) a Death Rune gives you automatic access to all Death Rune spells - You still have to learn these normally from your Cult/School/Friendly neighbourhood shaman, and so can still be restricted from some spells by cultic or cultural restrictions. It's just that you need the Rune as a focus (or a "Material Component" in D&D speak) to cast those spells

 

[gamesmeister]

I'd scrap Runes completely and get away from the literal "Rune Quest".

IIRC, the original rules state the name RuneQuest comes from the quest to achieve the physical and spiritual level of a rune master, which seems perfectly fine to me i.e. questing for physical runes seems rather contrived.

I do like the idea of integrating Runes, but as an alternative to magic crystals, not as the focus or source for spells.

 

[Ian Cooper]

HeroWars was Stafford's biggest gregging ever.

Well seeing as it was developed from Greg's writing whereas RQ was shoehorned on to Greg's writing your sense of history is somewhat awry.

but what a useless system. MRQ is full of flaws, but at least it's a system that can be houseruled into something workable.

Well this is an RQ board so I don't really want to get into a debate about HQ. However, we have played it every week for about 5 years without any house ruling as have many others, so your desciption of it as useless is perverse.

I accept it may not be a style that suits you, and one of the positives to Mongoose releasing RQ is that there is a Gloranthan system of a different ilk, but to call it 'useless' just implies that your posts are flame bait.

Personally I do not believe RQ fans should accept bad product, out of gratitude that RQ is in print.

To return to my original point though, as other have pointed out, Rune Magic is a change even from previous versions of RQ. It does not fit with Glorantha and attempts to fit it in feel unnatural. By contrast I think that Magic of Glorantha is a very good piece of work, which adds to Glorantha with Dragon Magic and Zistorite bio-mechanics in a way that is sympathetic to the system.

The problem for me is that the all of the line feels half-finished with some really good ideas let down by some really bad ideas.

 

[frogspawner]

Generally speaking you're going to be initiated into a cult if you're from a theist background... Which is going to provide you with the runes...

So maybe extending the idea down to Lay members is unnecessary, but I'd just like very low-powered characters (sub-initiate) to be viable and able to get a few spells.

I still haven't got my head round a logical way Rune spells should be created in game - from a character/narative perspective...

Do you mean how new ones are invented, or how they are learned?
Invention is via HeroQuesting, I guess. Learning is via spell-spirits, summoned-up by cult priests. And this gives us a solution to another problem...

Personally, I am against the idea that all Death cults get access to all Death Runespells and so on. Similarly, someone who has a Death Rune shouldn't necessarily be able to get all Death Runespells.

Each cult would only have certain types of spell-spirits available (those 'friendly to their god', i.e. a sub-set of spells tied to the relevant runes).