Rules Suggestions

[Klaetch]

So, I'm really enjoying the campaign I'm involved with at the moment -- I've tried forces from the Judges, Street Gangs and Lone Vigilante lists, and have aims to try out pretty much everything. Since the campaign's been going on for weeks, I just might, as well.

I've been discussing with the other players the ways in which we'd like to see things changed. None of the other players post on this forum, so I'm sort of the spokesperson for the moment.

Thankfully, there's not a lot of change we'd like to see, and as has already been said (albeit by cheetor, not me) the core mechanics are great; they're fast, and fun, and very suited to Judge Dredd.

First, battles really need to net a lot less creds. At the moment, two games (which is very possible in one gaming session, thanks to the speed of the game) can double the size of your force. This can be addressed in a number of ways:

a) Just make it so less Credits are handed out (e.g. 20% to the victor, 10% to the loser);
b) More incidental equipment;
c) Have purchasable resources;
d) Minions should die more easily.

I'll come back to the last two points individually.

First, the idea of purchasable resources. If there were restrictions on how many heavy weapons (for instance) a force could take, it could make a one-off purchase to buy into better contacts, yielding it access to more (or better) equipment. So, for instance, if a force could normally take two heavy weapons, for the one-time fee of buying a Contact (for, say, 100 Credits) it could now take up to four.

It's not just limited to equipment, you could pay for a Bribe, and get allies from a different force that were more than Mercenaries (Mobsters could Bribe some Apes to help them out; Punks could Bribe a corrupt Judge, etc.). I'm sure there are lots of ideas for these things.

Now, to minions. Oh, how I love my minions... but I think they should die more easily. At the moment, we're applying the full injury roll rules to them, and it's bogging things down a bit. Perhaps that's an oversight, and that's not how things are supposed to be done, but having an odd minion with -1 to Move or -1 to Agility slows things down with constant checking of force lists. And that's what Heroes are for.

So, maybe something more like this:

1-5: Scratch
6+: Dead, ran away, quit, or arrested (any way, not coming back)

With a Damage modifier as normal.

A less harsh version of that could exist for minions who failed Will to Fight rolls, and those who were arrested by Judges.

Right, now for just a quick begging-list. Dear Santa, I'd like some more scenarios (bank raids, chases, whacking the most experienced Hero, etc.) and some light vehicles (e.g. motorbikes) for lists others than Judges and more Talents (see my other post) and more gangs with robots and Kleggs and zombies, and a pony.

Okay, that's me done for now, off to try and persuade some Necromunda players to join in the campaign...

 

[GMAN]

Personally, one thing i'd like to see is a change in hero development, this is actually aimed at the Judge Force but can be applied to other mercenaries in general, and it's simply due to the miniatures. There are some awesome miniatures, especially the Holocaust 1 judges but other specialists are included, but the way i see at right now is that they just wont get used often as theyre only used as mercenaries, which is a shame, i know haven't ordered the Holocaust 2 suit just becuase it wouldn't get used often (although when the Citi-Def are released, i'll be getting it with that order )

I'd like to see a Rookie Judge be able to work up to buying a Holocaust suit or becoming a specialised medic (so maybe a few talents to support them), it'd take ages, but frankly, i'd really want to use that mini in an on going campaign. In skirmish games, i think its great when you have plans for each heros future, and each game work towards achieving it, and of course, it's gutting if theyre killed.

Another list i'd like to see expanded is the Mobsters, right now everyone i know whos looked have them have considered them a bit "meh" I think if they recieved a couple of extra choices, maybe the Lawyer and Cleaner from the GOMC1 days with a bit of tweaking, that'd be very characterful and make them very different from the Street Gang.

I'm yet to play a campaign, but once the new rules are out, we intend to start, a few players are holding out for Zombies, Robots and myself want a Citi-Def team for our campaign, so i'm not massivley sure about how else the advancements seem to be, but as far as the standard rules go, there isn't much wrong.

 

[cheetor]

Hi Klaetch, great post

Since the campaign's been going on for weeks

Are your forces massive at this stage in the campaign? How large are they getting as the games progress?

First, battles really need to net a lot less creds. At the moment, two games (which is very possible in one gaming session, thanks to the speed of the game) can double the size of your force.

We found this too. We felt that the rapid increase in force size diluted the personal level that we originally thought that the game was pitched at. My group prefers to have only a few miniatures each to keep track of and develop: its easier to develop a "relationship" with our owns guys and their regular adversaries that way. That is why my group likes the idea of the minions so much: disposable, easily replaceable goons that require minimal record keeping.

As Mongoose are in the business of selling figures I can see why rapidly growing gamngs may suit their plans (and who could blame them to an extent). That said, with the Block Wars rules due out I would be much happier to see large forces being dealt with there. Keeping the scope of non-Block Wars JDMG at <10 figures would make me very happy.

a) Just make it so less Credits are handed out (e.g. 20% to the victor, 10% to the loser);
b) More incidental equipment;
c) Have purchasable resources;
d) Minions should die more easily.

I like all of the above suggestions in principle. The cash increase per game currently is massive and worthwhile (but not game breaking) incidental equipment with limited access and with the MC1 flavour can only make the theme more immersive.

Purchasable resources were covered by GoMC1 in a similar manner to Necromunda and the like IIRC. I remember the GoMC1 resources being handled in a more streamlined fashion to the GW stuff but even so, too much post game bookwork can crucify games like this.

I would love to have my Judges to have access to a particularly good Forensics Lab or for my Gorilla Mobsters to run a Shuggy Hall as a front but if they do, I want the in or post-game or in-game effect to be extremely straightforward. As in easily explained in one simple sentence straightforward.

What has kept my interest in this ruleset so far is that it is streamlined in most of the right places in most of the right ways, so over complexity would have the potential to ruin it IMO.

First, the idea of purchasable resources. If there were restrictions on how many heavy weapons (for instance) a force could take, it could make a one-off purchase to buy into better contacts, yielding it access to more (or better) equipment. So, for instance, if a force could normally take two heavy weapons, for the one-time fee of buying a Contact (for, say, 100 Credits) it could now take up to four.

Or maybe the Contact provides Heavy Weapon limit +1 rather than double, But I am a conservative soul

I havent played enough to be sure, but the large amount of cash available plus the ready availability of heavy weapons did start to have an effect after a short period in our games.

It's not just limited to equipment, you could pay for a Bribe, and get allies from a different force that were more than Mercenaries (Mobsters could Bribe some Apes to help them out; Punks could Bribe a corrupt Judge, etc.). I'm sure there are lots of ideas for these things.

Presumably Mongoose HQ is full of ideas for this sort of thing, but I like your cross Faction Merc thing. As you said at the start, it seems likely to me that due to the games speed that many forces can be tried by the same player. Giving players options to use figure from the numerous factions in their collection could be fun.

All with the caveat that it doesnt make must-have combos or be so permissive that it dilutes the flavour of the gangs too much. Not too much chance to cherry pick.

Now, to minions. Oh, how I love my minions... but I think they should die more easily. At the moment, we're applying the full injury roll rules to them, and it's bogging things down a bit. Perhaps that's an oversight, and that's not how things are supposed to be done, but having an odd minion with -1 to Move or -1 to Agility slows things down with constant checking of force lists. And that's what Heroes are for.

So, maybe something more like this:

1-5: Scratch
6+: Dead, ran away, quit, or arrested (any way, not coming back)

With a Damage modifier as normal.

A less harsh version of that could exist for minions who failed Will to Fight rolls, and those who were arrested by Judges.

My group may have played Minions incorrectly during our weekend binge of JDMG but we treated them in a more generic fashion. The only factor that we recorded for a minion was whether it was removed from play or not: we didnt record injuries or anything. If one was removed and the player wanted an identical replacement for the next game then he got it.

As cash in JDMG is merely a ceiling rather than something that gets spent (unless we did something heinously wrong) we assumed that he just hired a new guy with an identical suite of talents and equipment.

The replacement wasnt the same "person" but had the same in-game effect. Minions that managed to survive five games became a Hero that that player had access to as per p.39.

I dont know if that was the correct way to play it, but it certainly fit with the idea of the expendable, bit part mook. I would be interested to know what the official line on this is (before I continue playing it my own way anyway in all likelyhood )

 

[Rick]

I think that each hero and minion should have a sort of 'upkeep cost' that must be paid out after each battle - in the case of most gangs it's some form of bribe to stop them going off and forming their own gang; in the case of Judges it'd be wages or living expenses. I'm thinking around 1/20th - 1/10th of the initial cost of the minion or hero (without extra equipment) + 1-2Cr per level of hero. If you can't pay all of the upkeep after a battle, you have to choose which heroes or minions to let go (with their equipment), and only keep the ones you can afford the upkeep costs on.

 

[Klaetch]

Are your forces massive at this stage in the campaign? How large are they getting as the games progress?

In the last game I played, my (main) force was 17-strong (Punks and Juves), against my opponent who was 15-strong (Cursed Earthers). I know my opponent had actually chosen expensive mutations and equipment for her force to purposefully keep the number of models down, which I think is somewhat telling.

Purchasable resources were covered by GoMC1 in a similar manner to Necromunda and the like IIRC. I remember the GoMC1 resources being handled in a more streamlined fashion to the GW stuff but even so, too much post game bookwork can crucify games like this.

Sadly, I was too late to the game (no pun intended) to get involved with GoMC1 so I don't know much about it. Is there much there that could be translated into the current iteration?

As for less bookwork, I'm in complete agreement. Which brings me to...

If you can't pay all of the upkeep after a battle, you have to choose which heroes or minions to let go (with their equipment), and only keep the ones you can afford the upkeep costs on.

While that's a fun idea for its own sake, it does sound like it might come with a bit more bookkeeping than I'd be happy with. I know Necro/Morka came with tables to limit income based on the number of models (I assume the goal was similar to the one you've suggested), but I doubt that would be a perfect fit even if it streamlined things. The concept of "Hired Guns" may be closer to what you've described, but that's already handled quite elegantly by the Mercenary rules, IMHO.

 

[cheetor]

Sadly, I was too late to the game (no pun intended) to get involved with GoMC1 so I don't know much about it. Is there much there that could be translated into the current iteration?

JDMG definitely has a different (and preferable) feel to GoMC1. That said, a read through the GoMC1 rulebook (and the supplement) would doubtless get creative juices flowing.

JDMG is a big improvement on GoMC1 so far IMO (and thats a lot of acronym for your creds right there. Yeesh).

If you can't pay all of the upkeep after a battle, you have to choose which heroes or minions to let go (with their equipment), and only keep the ones you can afford the upkeep costs on.

I played a bit of Gorkamorka recently which features essentially the same post battle sequence as Necromunda, including an upkeep element like that above. I am sorry to say, and to put it bluntly, it was a big pain in the ass.

Its a nice idea, but the execution is simply another layer of sequence for little if any gain. My gaming group isnt particularly deficient in the brain department, but it got to the stage that the GoMo post game sequence took longer than some of the games. The upkeep part wasnt entirely to blame of course, but any move in that direction needs to be well thought through. It gets tedious really fast.

JDMGs big strength currently is its streamlined, KISS nature. I very much hope that it doesnt stray far from that principle.

 

[Rick]

Hmm - ok. I agree that the Necromunda/Mordheim and Gorkamorka post-battle bit was always complicated, confusing and not really worthwhile - I was actually looking at the 'Age of Blood' post battle sequence for inspiration on this! If having a set upkeep cost is too complicated, then what do you suggest? Reducing the amount of money after a battle is good, but just slows down the problem; it doesn't really solve it.

 

[DyN]

I think it takes a combination of activities to bring it in to line. I agree with shrinking the prize of each battle (I'd suggest halving it) plus easier to kill minions (which also reduces record keeping).

I think allowing cross-faction mercenaries could damage the feel of the forces - I like the idea of a strong theme for the gangs and having the chance of mixing a gorilla with a fatty supporting a surfer gang (extreme example) just doesn't feel right. Hopefully if the cred gains after each game can be controlled there won't be such a need for players to include new non-themed recruits/mercs to keep up with the numbers.