Rules Q: reaction to flyover

[Slider]

This question was postd on EVOcommand, and I got some good responses there, but I'm hoping for an official MP response. Non-official discussion welcome as well.

Player 1 has an air unit; player 2 has a unit with AA capability.

Player 1 moves his air unit so that it ends its movement off the table. As a second action, it performs a shoot (bomb) action, which per the rules can place an FZ anywhere along its flightpath. Suppose, in fact, the air unit drops a bomb on the AA unit.

Question: can player 2 react, and if so, when?
Player 2 would dearly like to use his AA to try to shoot down the air unit.
Player 1's air ends its move off the table, thus out of reaction range. The bombing FZ, since it's on top of the AA, is definitely in range.

So, can Player 2's AA react:
1. During/right after player 1's movement (at the point where the bombing FZ will be created)?
2. After the shoot (bomb) is resolved, treating that as an action completed within its reaction range? Thus, if the bomb destroyed the AA, no reaction fire possible?
3. Or, not at all in this scenario?

(2) seems like the right answer to me (and some of the folks at evocommand). But it's weird, in that it doesn't happen in the right chronological order. This tactic represents a way to abuse air power, methinks; if you're happy with potentially having to wait around a few turns to come back on the board, and your bombs hit their mark, your air unit can't be touched.

 

[mutantpoo]

Good question.

 

[Lorcan Nagle]

I don't think the aircraft would be able to do that. While it can drop the bomb at any point along its' flightpath, it can't take an action while it's off the board, and so can't drop the bombs.

 

[Slider]

Lorcan: Hmm, hadn't even thought about that (whether actions can be taken off-board). Someone raised the same point on the evocommand thread I started on this issue. As they pointed out, there's nothing explicitly in the rulebook to this effect. But it seems very reasonable.

Really, without some sort of restriction, it seems the flyover bombing run that takes you off the board is unbalancing. One factor is avoiding AA fire: whatever the ruling on reaction to the bombing itself, at the very least the air unit won't be around on the AA unit's turn to take direct fire.
Another factor is the flexibility of movement such a scheme allows. Sure, you may roll low for a few turns and be stuck off board, but when you return, you can place the air unit at any edge and any heading. Considering that air units have to at least "cruise" to bomb, restricting them to 45 degree turn and minimum 20" move, and -- importantly-- that you have to move straight along whatever heading you start the turn with, it's unlikely you'll get any good targets to bomb on your second turn on the board. If you can bomb and fly off the board in the same turn, then if you return the next turn, you've effectively got a 180 degree turn possibility at full speed (not to mention complete freedom of placement).

Returning to what I see as the heart of the issue: the oddity arises because of how the game mechanics work. Really, the bombing happens in the middle of the movement, but the two actions/turn limit force the resolution of the bombing to occur after all of the movement. Is the air unit "really" taking the action at the point it creates the fire zone, in terms of the game? (thus triggering reactions by units within 30" of the FZ, and performing an action on the board?).

Incidentally, how does command interact with air? I assume air units can legitimately take 3 actions if given a bonus action by command. Could this be the mandatory move followed by two shoot actions, laying down extra bombs on the flightpath? Or, of course, the "realistic" version of the bombing run ending off-board -- here the shoot(bomb) would certainly trigger reactions, but you can escape from enemy attacks on their turn at least. I suppose if that seems like the best use of your bonus action, go for it...

 

[Lorcan Nagle]

Again, it comes down to how you simulate the simultaneous aspect of warfare. After all, that AAA is going to be firing at the plane as soon as it has a good bead, not conveniently when it "stops" movement. Spending the second action to drop bombs along the first action's path represents the pilot travelling in a relatively straight line instead of dodging and weaving - thus incurring 2 reactions.

Also, I'm pretty sure the rules do state models off-board can't spend actions. I can't quote you chapter and verse, but IIRC a command section can't provide the bonus if they're in reserve (or even in an APC!), and ambushign troops can't ready befor ethey reveal.

 

[Slider]

Hi Lorcan,
I wasn't privvy to the discussion, so this is second (or third?)-hand information. But someone on Evocommand posted a ruling they claimed was official from mongoose that ambushing units can be revealed already readied (already). If I recall, it was The Old Soldier in the Errata sticky thread. This ruling surprised me, but... there it is. So, does that count as a unit taking an action off-board? Or just before the game? Who knows.
Here's another consideration, which I started to include in my last post but didn't, as it was getting silly and rules-lawyery. But maybe relevant. So, can transports and the troops they could carry enter the board separately? If so, do you need to decide before the game whether they'll be together or not? If you can decide to split them on the fly, then maybe that's a loading/unloading action happening off board. A weak argument, I think, as the action doesn't directly affect anything on the board itself; you're certainyl not shooting at enemies from off-board.
Ah! Wait, there's off-board artillery, which CAN certainly shoot from off-board. But maybe they're not "units" taking "actions"... confusing.
Am I being a pain in the butt? Sorry, if so.

 

[Lorcan Nagle]

with transports, they're seperate to their transported infantry - once the infantry dismount the transport can go and do its' own thing.

As for arty, the action is being spent by a command unit, not the artillery.

 

[127th Angry Angels]

This is a really difficult one to be honest. I think if it happened on my table i'd allow the Jet to move, the AA to react and the bomb to fall as a one off situation. It's all happening at the same time and providing the AA is still in range to where the jet_would_be if i had a bigger table. It just seems a fair way of keeping all happy. If both units are destroyed then that's that. It would suck if the table edge was a tactical advantage for aircraft like that.

No idea how it would work in tournaments but for home play talk it out and reach a players agreement. If your opponent is unreasonable convince them with blunt force or walk away.

 

[hithero]

Looking at the whole thing logically, I can't see how the rules could allow a plane to make a bombing run without the oppotunity for the enemy AA to have a shot at it. Also I think it would be highly unfair for the ground forces to get 2 shots at the plane a turn, 1 as reaction and then again the following turn as it is so deadly and pretty much guarantees the planes destruction.

So for game balance this is how we play it round here.
The plane can move on and off the table in a turn and still bomb, but regardless of where the plane exits, providing the AA is in range at any point along its flight path, it can make a reaction shot. This seems faie and balanced by both players.

Another option I have just thought of and is perhaps better, is that the plane must be on table to take its shoot action (which would probably fit the rules better) but AA fire can ONLY be taken as a reation and never as part of a shoot action.

 

[Lorcan Nagle]

Yeah, it's obviously an attempt to allow a fighter to fire off it's payload without exposing it to AA fire, and as a gesture of good nature I'd allow it off the table in one turn so long as AAA gets one crack at it. Were I controlling the fighter, I'd be as concerned about it getting shot down in the enemy's subsuquent turn as from reaction fire.