Robots of Charted Space
- Thread starter Garnfellow
- Start date
Well, apart from the lengthy explanation I posted on the Avenger forum and left there for several months, yes, this is probably the first time I've publicly stated why I decided to get out of the Traveller commmunity.
I objected to the way Penn made an unrtrue statement about Avenger. I don't care what he thinks of my attitiude or my inexplicable desire to not give him exactly what he wants, but I do care about people spreading untruths about myself and Avenger.
I've suffered enough as a result of untrue statements and outright invention in the past. Indeed, this was a significant factor in my decision to walk away. I just got tired of being attacked for everything I had done, had not done, and in some cases for things done or not done by other people.
In the end though, the final straw was the impossibility of working with Marc Miller and his gang of 'advisors'. I ended up with a choice of going straight to Marc and getting nowhere or going through the high priest and having my work derailed by someone else's agenda.
I'm terribly sorry if this means someone was disappointed, but in the end, after something like fifteen years as a Traveller writer, I justhad to walk away from it all. Trust me, Penn and others, it's cost me more than you'd ever wish upon anyone.
I objected to the way Penn made an unrtrue statement about Avenger. I don't care what he thinks of my attitiude or my inexplicable desire to not give him exactly what he wants, but I do care about people spreading untruths about myself and Avenger.
I've suffered enough as a result of untrue statements and outright invention in the past. Indeed, this was a significant factor in my decision to walk away. I just got tired of being attacked for everything I had done, had not done, and in some cases for things done or not done by other people.
In the end though, the final straw was the impossibility of working with Marc Miller and his gang of 'advisors'. I ended up with a choice of going straight to Marc and getting nowhere or going through the high priest and having my work derailed by someone else's agenda.
I'm terribly sorry if this means someone was disappointed, but in the end, after something like fifteen years as a Traveller writer, I justhad to walk away from it all. Trust me, Penn and others, it's cost me more than you'd ever wish upon anyone.
The reason I orignally dropped out of sight was as a courtesy to Mongoose, because I didn't want to rock the boat for them. At the time I was still working on their Traveller line and voicing my general disgust at the behaviour of Marc's inner circle and segments of the fan base would not be in my client's interests.
Having terminated that involvement, I am now free to say what I please. I don't much care to - I just don't care enough any more - unless someone decides to spread untruths about me or my endeavours with Avenger.
Having terminated that involvement, I am now free to say what I please. I don't much care to - I just don't care enough any more - unless someone decides to spread untruths about me or my endeavours with Avenger.
BTW.
Far Avalon is published in PDF format, and the print version is with Comstar for final preparation now.
Translight may or may not ever get finished. I have to concentrate on stuff that pays better than a new SFRPG right now.
My future involvement with games stufff depends greatly on whether I ever regain any sort of entthusism. At present I sort of welcome the attacks from various quarters; they ensure that I continue to be unenthusiastic at returning to games publication, and that's probably in my best intests.
Far Avalon is published in PDF format, and the print version is with Comstar for final preparation now.
Translight may or may not ever get finished. I have to concentrate on stuff that pays better than a new SFRPG right now.
My future involvement with games stufff depends greatly on whether I ever regain any sort of entthusism. At present I sort of welcome the attacks from various quarters; they ensure that I continue to be unenthusiastic at returning to games publication, and that's probably in my best intests.
TravellerArt
Mongoose
Sylvre Phire said:
On a related note this is quite funny
http://scifisongs.blogspot.com/2009/08/sci-fi-song-20-george-rr-martin-is-not.html
Martin...I am sorry if I took it to Far with my statement..but to me you Dropped Off The Face of the NET!!! Your web site went all but silent!!! You said you were leaving, out of contact for a while. Now after I read that I never bothered to go back again. At that point your "Far Avalon" campaign seemed to be gone. Your own space based game system looked real good, all I ever wanted and hoped for was to see at least some of it in "Printed format" and NOT JUST .pdf only. I too bought alot of your works and suff as well too Martin, but to my perspective and the few I talk to on the net...you just "Disapeared" and your site and company fell "SILENT". To us the perception was that the ghost was GONE.
Now inlight of your comments, and direction I now understand. I was wrong in my personial perception that I thought the company was gone for good. I never said you were a bad writer at all, atually your a great writer. I never said your company was bad, actually it has one of the "Best Customer Service" I have had to deal with, and your products were very good. I never said anything against you or the company, other than you dissapeared and your company went silent, plus the activity on your sight dropped to almost nothing.
So in truth I have not bothered to return for a long time and have no idea it is current or not, but since there was no activity there to me it looked like it all was done. I become more active here, and stopped going to your site...I would never waste my time or effort at COTI anyway either.
I don't know what to say, other than this is a Traveller site, and that is what we talk about here. I could care less weather it is cannon or alternative, or what-ever. All is fine with me.
Penn
Now inlight of your comments, and direction I now understand. I was wrong in my personial perception that I thought the company was gone for good. I never said you were a bad writer at all, atually your a great writer. I never said your company was bad, actually it has one of the "Best Customer Service" I have had to deal with, and your products were very good. I never said anything against you or the company, other than you dissapeared and your company went silent, plus the activity on your sight dropped to almost nothing.
So in truth I have not bothered to return for a long time and have no idea it is current or not, but since there was no activity there to me it looked like it all was done. I become more active here, and stopped going to your site...I would never waste my time or effort at COTI anyway either.
I don't know what to say, other than this is a Traveller site, and that is what we talk about here. I could care less weather it is cannon or alternative, or what-ever. All is fine with me.
Penn
You had a personal go at me for 'whining', by which you mean explaining the reasoning why we could not do what you wanted and put out products in print at that time.
You stated that Avenger 'failed' as a company (which as I already stated is untrue).
In what way is this not saying anything bad about me or Avenger?
I have been on the receiving end of a few serious attacks as a result of rumours. One was the event that caused me to cease work on the Marches book - in truth, my decision to depart was based on many things but this was the beginning of the end.
What happened was:
1. Someone totally misinterpreted a post on our forum and turned it into a rumour that I intended to include unauthorised canon changes into the Marches book.
2. Some people had a panic-fest about that on COTI
3. I posted into that thread that nobody had actually tried to find out the truth of the matter.
4. Nobody took any notice.
5. Hunter Gordon (of QLI) went to Marc with the accusation that I was going to make these rumoured changes - making no atttempt to verify what was hapepning.
6. Marc beleived this at face value - making no attempt to verify what was happening.
7. I was forbidden to make any changes to any canon, nor to discuss such
8. Hunter Gordon was made 'line editor' for Traveller, and would henceforth vet my work for Avenger and Mongoose. This was illegal and stupid - QLI is a competitor, and submitting my Mongoose work to them would be a breach of my professional ethics.
9. I refused and decided to get out of the Traveller mess.
10. The 'line editor' thing was withdrawn but some parts of the marches book had to be done differently as a result of this interference.
There are two epilogues to this:
1. Marc Miller then published a set of Marches UWPs which had been altered to fix certain canon issues. I was planning to propose this for the Marches book but was forbidden to do so.
2. Although Marc has talked around the subject, he simply will not say what I told him I needed to hear - specifically that he understands that I am blameless in the whole business.
In short, someone started and spread a rumour, and as a result I suffered a very unpleasant episode which derailed a project of mine (costing me money due to the lost work time) and damaged my relationship with Marc. Arguably, it was the beginning of the process that led to my departure from the Traveller scene.
So you see, I don't like rumours.
You stated that Avenger 'failed' as a company (which as I already stated is untrue).
In what way is this not saying anything bad about me or Avenger?
I have been on the receiving end of a few serious attacks as a result of rumours. One was the event that caused me to cease work on the Marches book - in truth, my decision to depart was based on many things but this was the beginning of the end.
What happened was:
1. Someone totally misinterpreted a post on our forum and turned it into a rumour that I intended to include unauthorised canon changes into the Marches book.
2. Some people had a panic-fest about that on COTI
3. I posted into that thread that nobody had actually tried to find out the truth of the matter.
4. Nobody took any notice.
5. Hunter Gordon (of QLI) went to Marc with the accusation that I was going to make these rumoured changes - making no atttempt to verify what was hapepning.
6. Marc beleived this at face value - making no attempt to verify what was happening.
7. I was forbidden to make any changes to any canon, nor to discuss such
8. Hunter Gordon was made 'line editor' for Traveller, and would henceforth vet my work for Avenger and Mongoose. This was illegal and stupid - QLI is a competitor, and submitting my Mongoose work to them would be a breach of my professional ethics.
9. I refused and decided to get out of the Traveller mess.
10. The 'line editor' thing was withdrawn but some parts of the marches book had to be done differently as a result of this interference.
There are two epilogues to this:
1. Marc Miller then published a set of Marches UWPs which had been altered to fix certain canon issues. I was planning to propose this for the Marches book but was forbidden to do so.
2. Although Marc has talked around the subject, he simply will not say what I told him I needed to hear - specifically that he understands that I am blameless in the whole business.
In short, someone started and spread a rumour, and as a result I suffered a very unpleasant episode which derailed a project of mine (costing me money due to the lost work time) and damaged my relationship with Marc. Arguably, it was the beginning of the process that led to my departure from the Traveller scene.
So you see, I don't like rumours.
FreeTrav
Cosmic Mongoose
I am no more than a fan of Traveller, and perhaps the appellation 'grognard' can legitimately be applied to me. I saw much of what Martin has spoken of, and Martin's descriptions have, IMO, been ... less emphatic ... than I tend to think might be warranted - he has taken abuse from both certain producers and certain fans that a lesser person might feel was actionable, and where he COULD have taken that sort of action, he forebore to do so in the interest of reaching an amicable modus vivendi. Regrettably, it wasn't to be. He explained his thinking both on and off the Avenger forums, in far more detail than any of us were or are 'entitled' to, even if it was less than some might have wanted. I regret that he felt driven to make the decision that he made - I consider it a loss to the Traveller community - but I believe that he had and has the absolute right to make that decision, with or without explanation to the community, and if he feels that he has made the best decision for himself that he could, I will not, even in the privacy of my own thoughts, suggest that it was the wrong decision to make.
Place yourself in his position - something that you once liked doing has become unpleasant, both because of the way you are treated by the people directly paying you, and because of the way your ideas are received by a segment of those people's customers. Add to that an ability to earn a reasonable income without doing the things that have become unpleasant. Wouldn't you get to a point where you would, more or less, say "take this job and shove it!"? And if some of the customers excoriated you for it, you'd probably be angry about it - it's your decision, after all.
Think about it that way - and then extend to Martin the same courtesy that you'd want if it were you.
I, for one, am willing to listen if Martin wants to vent - and if he wants my thoughts on what he says, I'm willing to share them - and yes, I may very well try to put the best complexion on something that he sees as negatives, and perhaps do what he might perceive as 'defending' the offensive people. But I will not suggest that he made the wrong decision; I will respect his decision and his reasons for doing so.
Those who write Traveller for fiscal remuneration are no less worthy of respect - as people, and as members of the Traveller community - than those of us who do fanac purely out of love for the hobby. Yet time and again, I have seen Martin treated worse than I have ever been. I don't think that's fair to Martin - and I don't think it's right of the community.
I ask the community: Please, look at what you're doing, and ask yourself, if it were YOU that were the target of what you're doing, how would you feel?
I may lose readership for defending Martin this way. If so, so be it. I will continue to invest effort in Freelance Traveller, for what I hope is the overall benefit of the community, for as long at it remains fun. Even if I do lose readership over this, I will stand by my defense of Martin, even though he needs no defense. Take it for what you feel it is worth. Ω
Place yourself in his position - something that you once liked doing has become unpleasant, both because of the way you are treated by the people directly paying you, and because of the way your ideas are received by a segment of those people's customers. Add to that an ability to earn a reasonable income without doing the things that have become unpleasant. Wouldn't you get to a point where you would, more or less, say "take this job and shove it!"? And if some of the customers excoriated you for it, you'd probably be angry about it - it's your decision, after all.
Think about it that way - and then extend to Martin the same courtesy that you'd want if it were you.
I, for one, am willing to listen if Martin wants to vent - and if he wants my thoughts on what he says, I'm willing to share them - and yes, I may very well try to put the best complexion on something that he sees as negatives, and perhaps do what he might perceive as 'defending' the offensive people. But I will not suggest that he made the wrong decision; I will respect his decision and his reasons for doing so.
Those who write Traveller for fiscal remuneration are no less worthy of respect - as people, and as members of the Traveller community - than those of us who do fanac purely out of love for the hobby. Yet time and again, I have seen Martin treated worse than I have ever been. I don't think that's fair to Martin - and I don't think it's right of the community.
I ask the community: Please, look at what you're doing, and ask yourself, if it were YOU that were the target of what you're doing, how would you feel?
I may lose readership for defending Martin this way. If so, so be it. I will continue to invest effort in Freelance Traveller, for what I hope is the overall benefit of the community, for as long at it remains fun. Even if I do lose readership over this, I will stand by my defense of Martin, even though he needs no defense. Take it for what you feel it is worth. Ω
I am sad that MJD decided to stop writing for Traveller, because his mate-
rial was among the very best Traveller material ever written.
But MJD does not have to explain or justify his perfectly normal decision.
A writer is of course free to decide what he considers best for himself, and
he is not in any way obliged to tell foreigners like us his reasons for doing
so.
He was so kind to tell us his reasons, and they are truly excellent reasons.
In fact, I find it admirable that he continued for so long under such circum-
stances. I have watched only some of the events from the sidelines, and I
have rarely been the target of some of the people he had to deal with, and
even this was enough to ruin much of my fun with Traveller.
So, MJD, thank you very much for all your efforts for Traveller, and I wish
you all the best for the future - and greetings to your cats. :wink:
rial was among the very best Traveller material ever written.
But MJD does not have to explain or justify his perfectly normal decision.
A writer is of course free to decide what he considers best for himself, and
he is not in any way obliged to tell foreigners like us his reasons for doing
so.
He was so kind to tell us his reasons, and they are truly excellent reasons.
In fact, I find it admirable that he continued for so long under such circum-
stances. I have watched only some of the events from the sidelines, and I
have rarely been the target of some of the people he had to deal with, and
even this was enough to ruin much of my fun with Traveller.
So, MJD, thank you very much for all your efforts for Traveller, and I wish
you all the best for the future - and greetings to your cats. :wink:
Very understandable. A perfect example of why not to mix your loves with work. It may go well for a while, even many years, but if it ever crashes and burns, its horrible.
I too avoid certain websites, simply put the attitudes of certain people tend to poison the fun of what is supposed to be a game. So I just stay away from such people and the boards they "poison".
Its a shame Marc didn't handle things well enough to smooth everything over and make things right, but we all screw up, certain times worse than others. Maybe one of these days he will wake up with the will and the way to make things right again, but who knows?
Hopefully when the hurt and disappointment fades you will find away to share your ideas again.
I too avoid certain websites, simply put the attitudes of certain people tend to poison the fun of what is supposed to be a game. So I just stay away from such people and the boards they "poison".
Its a shame Marc didn't handle things well enough to smooth everything over and make things right, but we all screw up, certain times worse than others. Maybe one of these days he will wake up with the will and the way to make things right again, but who knows?
Hopefully when the hurt and disappointment fades you will find away to share your ideas again.
Vile
Banded Mongoose
I'll have to save a link to this thread so I can repost it when this whole thing comes up again. Honestly, how anyone on the internet can not know the history of MJD + Traveller is a mystery to me, but this does keep popping up ... :roll:
As for PDF publishers - well, I have to say that it was MJD's Traveller writing which first tempted me into the PDF-buying field. Today there are very few products which I would buy in printed format, because about the only advantage they have for me is as bed-time reading - and I'm afraid i don't get to do much of that any more.
Now, about this Robots PDF - Flynn, we all know you're hiding over there on Dragonsfoot, but there is no escape from the entitled fanbase ... :twisted:
As for PDF publishers - well, I have to say that it was MJD's Traveller writing which first tempted me into the PDF-buying field. Today there are very few products which I would buy in printed format, because about the only advantage they have for me is as bed-time reading - and I'm afraid i don't get to do much of that any more.
Now, about this Robots PDF - Flynn, we all know you're hiding over there on Dragonsfoot, but there is no escape from the entitled fanbase ... :twisted:
