Road of Kings

[Hyborian Apeman]

I would have to come down on the side of those who are torn. I am almost through all of Howard's works, and I definitely love them, and want the RPG to be true to them.

But in all reality, Mongoose has probably come close to already publishing more pages about Conan's world than Howard himself wrote about it (I am exaggerating some here I am sure).

The fact of the matter is that there is a lot about the world that Howard barely mentions, and if we want information about those parts of the world, we need to rely on other sources. The pastiches are one possible source.

I trust authors like Vincent have been properly discerning in what material to include to stay faithful to Howard's vision while still providing us with new source material.

 

[VincentDarlage]

I imagine the people who don't want the pastiche material used have seen the misuse of Robert E. Howard's work by de Camp and Carter, Milius, pastiche authors who didn't understand Conan or sometimes even try to; have welcomed Wandering Star's rehabilitation of Howard and the new Conan Properties' more Howard-centric use of the world and the character; and feel that the Mongoose sourcebooks seeming to put the pastiches almost in parity with the Howard stories is a retrograde step that treats usually third-rate profit-oriented product with far more respect than it deserves, tarring the original material by the association.

As far as stories go, I am a Howard purist - as far as games go, that seems to be a silly stance to take, as any game I might run would by definition qualify as "pastiche." Someone wanting just Howard-based material should buy the core rules and Scrolls of Skelos and leave it at that. That pretty much covers the original material.

But that does not seem to be the argument I am seeing. I am seeing an argument that the pastiches should be left alone and Mongoose should develop its own material (which would be just as pastiche as the pastiches).

My argument is that we do present our own original material (Shadizar and Messantia are both largely comprised of original Mongoose material based on Howard's minimal words about the cities), as well as presenting other pastiche material as appropriate just to avoid re-inventing the wheel.

For example, in Aquilonia, I presented Conan's children as presented in the pastiches. I could have made up my own kids for Conan. Would that have been better than presenting the kids L. Sprague de Camp and Marvel Comics made up? What if a person buying the books was a fan of Conan the King? The sourcebook does not preclude a GM dispensing with pastiche from inventing his own children for Conan by any means. Should I have reinvented the wheel there, or use what is already established? Which version of pastiche would be better? Or just leave out the kids? The latter is easily done by a GM who doesn't want them.

I guess I am just not understanding the argument that my original material is inherently better than someone else's. Either way, it is an expansion of ideas began with Howard. I just try to present material to help play the game. Does a pastiche city name really make that big of a difference, or do GMs just want to play in cities Howard described, or do GMs just want to play in cities I invent?

A "true" purist would probably not play the game or buy the game. Since the game is not written by Howard, it is not pure. They would buy the Howard stories and nothing more.

 

[VincentDarlage]

I trust authors like Vincent have been properly discerning in what material to include to stay faithful to Howard's vision while still providing us with new source material.

Thank you! I try my best.

 

[strategoi_nikolai]

I certainly have no problem with using story ideas from the pastiches and the Marvel series. Amusingly, I just read Issue #134 (I think) of Savage Sword with the story about the XXI Legion, and what do I see later in the evening as I work my way through ACROSS THE THUNDER RIVER? Stats for Garloc (sp?), the legion consul from that story. How cool is that?

As long as Mr. Darlage and the other authors strive to (more or less) seamlessly incorporate "new" Hyborian ideas that don't outright contradict Howard's existing body of work, I say go for it. I don't think they are going to "surrender to the moment" and suddenly try to slip in elements that aren't Howardian (no tattooed, nose-ringed Drow babes in leather here!

 

[Faraer]

Vincent, there's the aspect of quality and the aspect of smell.

I guess I am just not understanding the argument that my original material is inherently better than someone else's.

A new Howard-sourced expanded Hyborian Age stands to be better through being more coherent, as opposed to disparate visions of widely varying quality, often contrived for the purpose of a particular story rather than with the setting (and long-term storytelling needs) foremost in mind, cobbled together. I think Kurt's world will end up better than the combined-earlier-pastiches world, for instance.

. . . as well as presenting other pastiche material as appropriate just to avoid re-inventing the wheel. . . What if a person buying the books was a fan of Conan the King?

That's one of the main reasons for using that material. Conversely, if a person dislikes Conan the King, in its substance or what it represents, that may sour them on the whole book. It's a question of moral authority.

The sourcebook does not preclude a GM dispensing with pastiche from inventing his own children for Conan by any means.

No. But for myself, I don't like the d20 'toolset' mentality in which people are encouraged to pick and choose little pieces buffet-style they like from books they've bought. I prefer to read and use books that I like and trust rather than approaching everything skeptically.

I don't think talking about 'purists' is helpful. I think that's a spurious tribal marker than doesn't correspond much with what actual people think.

Again, I'm presenting a point of view I only partly agree with. By and large I do trust your selection of what pastiche elements to incorporate.

 

[greenjelly]

If a person dislikes Conan The King, they arent likely to buy the book in the first place if it has stats and game information based from that book.

Basically what you are saying is you want to replace one pastiche with another. Just because Vincent has done an excellent job so far (and he has) doesnt mean his new pastiche will be any better than the books were.

Like it or not, the fact is those books were all written and published and a LOT of people enjoyed them. The number of Howard pursists is small, they are just the most vocal.

 

[René]

The number of Howard pursists is small, they are just the most vocal.

Are you sure?

 

[Raven Blackwell]

To throw in my 2 cents, the way I address sourcebooks is not as a canonical text whose standard I must conform to absolutely [if it did things like that I'd likely still be Catholic] but a wealth of idea, images and inspiriation to draw from for my own use- and to discard if I don't think it fits my story. We all create our own world within when we create- no matter how much we'd try and keep our image 'pure' to one author or the other, the world you create is not that author's nor should it be. The magic in Creation is where the edges start to blur and something new is made.

My Hyboria isn't Howard's or Rene's or Vincent's Hyboria or anyone else's. It close enough that you can recognize them as kin but not clones. Vincent did a good job at trying to fit the schizophrenic(sp?) history of Conan and the Hyborian world into a coherent whole, but I view it as a starting point, not the destination. I draw on a lot of material- older 2 ed and current D&D sources, the old and new Warhammer Fantasy RPG, generic d20 and even Gothic horror to shape my worlds. [I've had to. Mongoose can't publish things fast enough for my party's hunger for adventure 8)] The result isn't 'pure Howard' but it is still gooid and people like visit it weekly, so I guess they must like it. Which is I suppose, the point of GMing- to create something others wil enjoy.

Raven, rambling

 

[greenjelly]

The number of Howard pursists is small, they are just the most vocal.

Are you sure?

Yep. You never see any of the Howard only compilation books on any best seller lists. Then take away the purists who dont play RPGs (most of them) and you are left with not many at all.

 

[Faraer]

The Coming of Conan the Cimmerian has gone through multiple sizeable printings and is certainly selling more strongly than the Tor pastiches. On the other hand, in the past a lot of people did come to Howard either through the Marvel Conan comics or the Lancer/Ace editions. People aren't idiots: they can tell brass from muck.

Again, what is a 'purist'? Someone who recognizes that Howard's original work is in a different category from spin-off work-for-hire franchise fiction made decades after he died? Someone who will deliberately avoid anything to do with Conan not written by Howard? Someone who identifies themselves as a 'purist'? It's not a useful term because it doesn't describe reality or foster understanding.

 

[LokiOne]

I find this to be one of my most prized pieces in my Conan RPG collection. I don't really care from what source the ideas have been gleaned - as long as it 'sounds' OK to Me ... (I'm not a Purist)

As long as the overall game world seems to make sense. I like all of the Adventure Seeds, scattered throughout - and look forward to expanding upon some sections that take my fancy (As with my Khitai fetish ...)

My advise to a Startup Conan GM is ... grab a copy! It's a good investment. I really enjoy reading and referring to it as 'starting research' for my Conan Aventures (Good work Vincent and Mongoose).

Then there's all the useful stuff that pops up in this Forum that I'll happily plunder .... (I should start making some decent Contributions as well!)

Just 'go with the flow Everybody, and enjoy playing the game (!)