Real world stateroom

[sideranautae]

This is a diagram of a 14.5 M2 stateroom on a ship. About 1 square meter larger than one that uses 3 "tons". So, very close to what I've used for eons. Larger than I envisioned.

Twin beds that make up into a queen-size bed
Refrigerator and TV
Spacious closet
Bathroom with shower
Private safe

 

[Condottiere]

Your mileage may vary.

 

[sideranautae]

Your mileage may vary.

???

 

[GypsyComet]

What are the dimensions on that diagram?

A 3-ton stateroom is going to measure about 10 feet by 15 feet (3m x 4.5m) unless you change the ceiling assumption.

 

[sideranautae]

What are the dimensions on that diagram?

A 3-ton stateroom is going to measure about 10 feet by 15 feet (3m x 4.5m) unless you change the ceiling assumption.

It is ~14.5 square meters. So, a tad over 10 by 15. Probably 10 by 16 feet pictured.

 

[Condottiere]

Steel is cheap and air is free, though that analogy is more about military ships.

Cabins are sized to extract the maximum economic benefit for the operator, while not unduly annoying the customer, which is why if you offer a lower price, they are prepared to put up with more inconveniences.

Most starships aren't pleasure cruisers, where common areas help alleviate claustrophobia.

Depending on the starship's intended purpose, common areas can be re-integrated into the stateroom, or a suite of staterooms.

 

[sideranautae]

Most starships aren't pleasure cruisers, where common areas help alleviate claustrophobia.

Cabins aboard freighters today are basically the same as pictured on this thread...

 

[Galadrion]

So that stateroom is about 14.5 m^2. The problem with the comparison is that a Traveller stateroom is about 13.5 m^3. So, unless your real-world stateroom's ceiling is only one meter high, they're not really so comparable after all. It's more likely that your r.w. stateroom takes up 36+ m^3 (figuring about 2.5 m vertical dimension, which may be a bit on the low side, considering infrastructure spaces). For the Traveller universe, this would definitely be on the luxurious side.

 

[sideranautae]

So that stateroom is about 14.5 m^2. The problem with the comparison is that a Traveller stateroom is about 13.5 m^3. So, unless your real-world stateroom's ceiling is only one meter high, they're not really so comparable after all.

I said it was comparable to the staterooms IMTU which are 3 tons (6 squares)

 

[Pyromancer]

So that stateroom is about 14.5 m^2. The problem with the comparison is that a Traveller stateroom is about 13.5 m^3. So, unless your real-world stateroom's ceiling is only one meter high, they're not really so comparable after all. It's more likely that your r.w. stateroom takes up 36+ m^3 (figuring about 2.5 m vertical dimension, which may be a bit on the low side, considering infrastructure spaces). For the Traveller universe, this would definitely be on the luxurious side.

13.5m^3 is roughly ONE dton. A core book cabin is 4 dtons big = 8 squares. Usually, of the eight squares two to four are used for corridors or common rooms, so the stateroom pictured (roughly six squares) is on the large side of things, but well within specifications.

 

[Galadrion]

True. That's what I get for posting while not quite awake yet...

 

[Condottiere]

I have a side project with the working title Space Gnomes; obviously, their staterooms and corridors will be smaller and tighter, and you can really lower the ceiling.

The default size of stateroom is just a number to help design accounting.

 

[sideranautae]

The default size of stateroom is just a number to help design accounting.

Right, it gives a median size/quality for Tramp/small ships. Amazingly close to real world freight hauling ship cabins...

 

[phavoc]

If you'd like to see some nifty modeling (animated now!) of Amtrak car suites and bedrooms you can find them at this link:

http://www.amtrak.com/onboard-the-train-sleeping-accommodations

I think Amtrak-style accommodations would be entirely appropriate for short-term stays for in-system liners. And cheaper accommodations for jump-capable ships too.

 

[sideranautae]

If you'd like to see some nifty modeling (animated now!) of Amtrak car suites and bedrooms you can find them at this link:

http://www.amtrak.com/onboard-the-train-sleeping-accommodations

I think Amtrak-style accommodations would be entirely appropriate for short-term stays for in-system liners. And cheaper accommodations for jump-capable ships too.

Perfect! That would be great for a couple day trip like Earth to Mars. Should be added to small craft rules.

 

[phavoc]

I've tinkered some with the stateroom rules to allow for a wider range of options. It's always bugged me that the choices in Traveller for stateroom passage were so limited. Or the fact that a Free Trader could charge for 1st class passage just like a luxury liner 100x it's size. So here's what I came up with:

Passage type / price per jump / displacement
frozen / 1,500 / 2 per 1 DT
Low or 3rd / 3,000 / 2DT
Mid, crew or 2nd / 5,000 / 3DT
High or 1st / 8,000 / 4DT
Luxury or Gold / 11,000 / 5DT
Super luxury or Platinum / 15,000 / 6DT
Iridium / 20,000 / 10DT
Lord / 25,000 / 14DT
Empress / 50,000 / 22DT

Only luxury liners would be able to offer luxury or above, and only dedicated liners would be able to offer 1st class. We've seen from history that for some people paying 20kCR for passage is well within reason. But most people couldn't afford that and would travel in a lower class. But I think most would avoid being frozen since you always have a risk of dying being thawed out.

I also came up with shorter-ranged seating and cabins for in-system haulers. While you could actually exceed the length of a trip in normal space staying in a system, I suspect most trips are only a few days between planets. I tried to model it after airlines and rail travel.

Type / price / displacement
economy / 25cr for orbital, 55cr a day / 5 seats per DT
standard / 35cr for orbital, 65cr a day / 4 seats per DT
1st class / 80cr for orbital, 125cr a day / 2 seats per DT
standard sleeper cabin / 250cr day for 3 days or less / seats 4-6 (converts to bunks), 2DT
1st class sleeper cabin / 400cr day for 3 days or less / seats 4 (converts to bunks), 2DT

It's been a work in progress for a while. I keep tinkering with it and the descriptions/tables. 8 pages and counting!

 

[sideranautae]

I've tinkered some with the stateroom rules to allow for a wider range of options. It's always bugged me that the choices in Traveller for stateroom passage were so limited. Or the fact that a Free Trader could charge for 1st class passage just like a luxury liner 100x it's size. So here's what I came up with:

Nice work up. I too only allow up to Mid passage for mixed cargo/passenger ships and use the same 3 ton rule for that passage.

Do you think that the in-system passenger rates are high enough given the cost of the non-jump space crafts in question?

 

[phavoc]

Nice work up. I too only allow up to Mid passage for mixed cargo/passenger ships and use the same 3 ton rule for that passage.

Do you think that the in-system passenger rates are high enough given the cost of the non-jump space crafts in question?

I tried to model it after real-world trains. I had read somewhere that 1 CR is equivalent to about $3 USD conversion-wise. And there would have to be some way for the average citizen to be able to afford interplanetary travel, so the costs would need to be inline with something along those lines.

I can get a one-way Amtrak cabin for anywhere between $600-700 to take a 2ish day trip from Dallas, TX to Los Angeles CA for two adults. The prices vary, depending on times and dates. Now, if I were in Canada, and I wanted to travel from BC to Toronto, it's about a 3.5 day trip and a 2-person cabin would cost me $2,200. It's harder to find Euro overnight trains. But 1st class from Moscow to Vladivostok in a cabin for nearly 7 days is $1,400. So I think my pricing is in the realm of possibility and affordability.

I HATE how ticket pricing is so fracking gamed by transport companies. I'm still tinkering with price discounts that PC's might get waiting till the last minute to book unsold cabins, but to keep the game easier I simply don't accommodate that kind of thing in my price models. I suspect travel would be pretty established for most regular routes, so pricing would be relatively flat. Plus Trav doesn't model that sort of thing anyways, so that's another reason to avoid it.

 

[sideranautae]

I can get a one-way Amtrak cabin for anywhere between $600-700 to take a 2ish day trip from Dallas, TX to Los Angeles CA for two adults. The prices vary, depending on times and dates. Now, if I were in Canada, and I wanted to travel from BC to Toronto, it's about a 3.5 day trip and a 2-person cabin would cost me $2,200. It's harder to find Euro overnight trains. But 1st class from Moscow to Vladivostok in a cabin for nearly 7 days is $1,400. So I think my pricing is in the realm of possibility and affordability.

I HATE how ticket pricing is so fracking gamed by transport companies. I'm still tinkering with price discounts that PC's might get waiting till the last minute to book unsold cabins, but to keep the game easier I simply don't accommodate that kind of thing in my price models. I suspect travel would be pretty established for most regular routes, so pricing would be relatively flat. Plus Trav doesn't model that sort of thing anyways, so that's another reason to avoid it.

Ya have to remember that the Amtrack prices are low because it is not a private carrier and the tax payer foots most of the ticket price. For realistic prices you'd have to work backwards from the cost of the vehicle.

I will be doing that for interstellar mid & low passage once I finish my cost tables. Since I don't ding Cr2k/month for empty rooms like Trav does, it will probably allow a small profit to be made for hauling mid-passengers.

Here's my alternate Low Berth that might work better: TL 9-12: A low passage berth carries one low passenger, costs Cr. 50,000, and displaces one-half ton. This is a sealed tube where a person is placed and given two specific drugs. The first causes body metabolism to slow by a factor of 30. Thirty days seem as but one. The 2nd drug causes the person to sleep for one subjective day (recipients viewpoint). The berth is low gravity to prevent bed sores and has medical monitoring equipment. There is no danger of dying.

 

[phavoc]

Ya have to remember that the Amtrack prices are low because it is not a private carrier and the tax payer foots most of the ticket price. For realistic prices you'd have to work backwards from the cost of the vehicle.

Amtrak is partially subsidized, by the feds and states. In 2013 they received about $1.3B in subsidies. But the airlines receive subsidies, as do the freight railroads. Both directly and non-directly. So I'm pretty comfortable with the realism of the prices since Amtrak has to pay for rolling stock, personnel and their support infrastructure as well as paying fees to freight lines for trackage rights.

I will be doing that for interstellar mid & low passage once I finish my cost tables. Since I don't ding Cr2k/month for empty rooms like Trav does, it will probably allow a small profit to be made for hauling mid-passengers.

Here's my alternate Low Berth that might work better: TL 9-12: A low passage berth carries one low passenger, costs Cr. 50,000, and displaces one-half ton. This is a sealed tube where a person is placed and given two specific drugs. The first causes body metabolism to slow by a factor of 30. Thirty days seem as but one. The 2nd drug causes the person to sleep for one subjective day (recipients viewpoint). The berth is low gravity to prevent bed sores and has medical monitoring equipment. There is no danger of dying.

I created the costs for each type of cabin/seating:

Frozen - Cr50,000ea
Low / 3rd - Cr375,000
Mid / Crew / 2nd - Cr500,000
High / 1st - Cr625,000
Luxury / Gold - Cr750,000
Super Luxurious/ Platinum - MCr - 1
Iridium - MCr - 1.5
Lord - MCr - 2
Empress - MCr - 5

And I jiggered with the level of steward service you'd get (on a liner only).