Rationale for not allowing tank main guns to do reaction fir

[predhead]

I was giving this some thought, having played my first BEVO (pronounced like DEVO) game this past weekend. We actually had played the rules incorrectly, having the M1 perform reaction fire on a PLA tank that had fired at the M1. I guess I do not understand why a tank cannot perform reaction fire. Seems to me from the Gulf War and the current war in Iraq that modern tanks can react to situations rather rapidly. Autoloaders, technology, etc. should allow a fairly quick reaction to enemy fire.

Thoughts?

 

[tiepilot1138]

My guess is that while tech still makes it pretty quick, a turn in real life is probably only 30-45 seconds, and reaction fire is significantly less than that. Even with autoloaders, you still need time for the commander to spot, relay info to the gunner and rotate the turret. Alot more complex than just turning and firing your M4, I would think.

 

[Turtle]

No, don't try to rationalize to the real world. That way lies madness.

Instead, think of it in game terms. What would happen if you let a tank, with it's massively powerful cannon, fire both once during its turn, and once on reaction?

They would dominate the game even more than they do now. Not allowing the main cannon to fire on reaction gives infantry a small chance to do something to it without getting killed. Same for tanks.

 

[Scotty59]

I agree with Turtle. I think it was a deliberate design decision to have tank main guns work like pack weapons in Starship Troopers.

The way we played it, predhead, the M1 killed both Type 99's in one turn. Game over, man! How do ya think that made us PLA players feel? :wink:

Having said that, in "real life" I suspect that an M1 could probably duplicate the results of our game.

 

[Daddy Dragon]

My guess is that while tech still makes it pretty quick, a turn in real life is probably only 30-45 seconds, and reaction fire is significantly less than that. Even with autoloaders, you still need time for the commander to spot, relay info to the gunner and rotate the turret. Alot more complex than just turning and firing your M4, I would think.

While I'm firmly in the camp with Turtle, I believe its more of a game mechanic than a reflection of reality, I did want to respond to this.

The Abrams (and by extension its distant cousins of the major western powers), can engage targets much more swiftly that this.

A single tank engagement can take from 3 to 10 seconds. A dual tank engagement can can take 6 to 15. With newest optics and hunter/killer sights, a gunner can be engaging his target while the commander sets up the next target. Once the gunner sends his round down range, he flips a switch and the turret will automatically swing to where the commanders independent sight is sighted. The only thing that takes time is reloading and slewing the turret (an M1 turret can make a full 360 in 6 seconds). Assuming that your loader (recruits excluded) is not some nutcase who is vacuum loading (and any tank commander who allows it is insane), it should not take more than 3 to 5 seconds to reload the main gun. While I was in the service, I could easily load rounds in under 3-1/2 seconds. Pops (the oldest member of my OSUT/first deployment unit), could do it in under 3, every time.

In a target rich environment, as a for instance, a battle that I myself participated in at the NTC, the four tanks of my platoon fired an average of 12 rounds a minute. We depleted our entire basic load of main gun rounds in less than four minutes (ready and turret/turret floor reserves). That left just the reserve rounds in the hull (not the easiest to get to).

Regards,
Larry

P.S.

Now pact tanks are a whole 'nother country. They do have autoloaders, and not one of them can beat a man doing the same job. NATO tanks can easily do 2 to 1, but 3 or even 4 to 1 is more likely.

 

[predhead]

Indeed then, I am for tanks being able to fire in the Reaction phase as this is seemingly more true to their real life capabilities. Terrain (i.e. - cover) on the tabletop is critical for infantry's survival, and once some of the AT packs roll out a tank will have more to worry about than just other enemy tanks.

Having said that, yes, I can see where the game is no fun when both PLA tanks were wiped out on turn 1! :wink:

 

[Shadow4ce]

Where exactly in the rules does it state you canNOT fire the main gun as a reaction?

The only thing I've found close so far is on the card where it says it can only be fired once per turn, which having witnessed tracks firing, I can verify is silly because what Daddy Dragon says is spot on. But that is another topic.

Back to my contention, I fire once during my turn and cannot fire again until next turn. I finish my turn. It is now my opponent's turn... ergo, next turn. Which is now another turn, and per the special rules on the card, I should be able to fire once this (my opponent's) turn as a reaction.

Please know I am new to these boards and this game so be kind to me if I missed the obvious. I consider my opponent's turn and my turn as two different turns. If there is some rule in the game I missed which specifies "only during my turn" then please point me there. If this has been clarified officially by Mongoose, then please point me there. Otherwise, are we all sure we can't clear tubes as a reaction?

Target! Up! Away! Kablam! Target Neutralized!

 

[The Old Soldier]

I'm too lazy to look it up, but this is not the first thread on this subject. Remember the rules are streamlined in it's wording. ONCE a turn, means your turn. Much like SST and the pack weapons in that game. In SST pack weapons fired in your turn once, and had no reaction fire. Same holds true with this game.

But, hey you want them to react in your home games, go for it.

 

[cordas]

Indeed then, I am for tanks being able to fire in the Reaction phase as this is seemingly more true to their real life capabilities. Terrain (i.e. - cover) on the tabletop is critical for infantry's survival, and once some of the AT packs roll out a tank will have more to worry about than just other enemy tanks.

I don't have any offical cards handy at the moment but checking the ones that are available online (the official cards may read differently) and reading the rules tanks can fire their main guns as a reaction, so long as they didn't fire the main gun in their player turn.

Yes this might be wrong irl, but so is most of the game.... How often does a fire team leader go out and select a fire point then instruct his men to fire with X feet of that point? The game has mechanics to make it playble we just have to live with them, and argue against them when we think they are wrong for gaming purposes not what happens irl (this is a lot easier said than done I know).

Note the game does distinguish between game turns and player turns, and the default setting is Game turn as far as I am aware (certainly that is how we have always read and played the rules).

Must learn to read the entire card, not just the bits that would be logical when you are half asleep and being lazy It states in the Armoured rules as noted in the post below.

 

[britneyfan97]

Check the 'Special Rules' on the back of any given tank card (so far).

Under the Armoured rule, I'll use the Challenger II for example:

Armoured: The Challenger II will ignore all terrain 1" high or less for the purposes of movement. It is also immune to supression but only has an armour score of 3+ to the side or rear facings. The Challenger II may never make any reactions except to shoot with its GPMG. It will also ignore the effects of smoke (see main rulebook).

After checking all of the other tank cards, they all have slightly differing variations on the reaction rule. Bottom line is, react with MG's only (number varies by tank), no main gun, no extra movement.

Hope this helps.

 

[cordas]

Check the 'Special Rules' on the back of any given tank card (so far).

Under the Armoured rule, I'll use the Challenger II for example:

Armoured: The Challenger II will ignore all terrain 1" high or less for the purposes of movement. It is also immune to supression but only has an armour score of 3+ to the side or rear facings. The Challenger II may never make any reactions except to shoot with its GPMG. It will also ignore the effects of smoke (see main rulebook).

After checking all of the other tank cards, they all have slightly differing variations on the reaction rule. Bottom line is, react with MG's only (number varies by tank), no main gun, no extra movement.

Hope this helps.

*DOH* Yes I was wrong, argh why put the rules about firing the main gun in the armoured section, and not in the rules about the bleeping main gun itself....... *ARGH*

 

[britneyfan97]

I only knew about it because it was pointed out to me as well... :lol:

 

[BuShips]

I've always figured that a game turn was defined by each player finishing an equal 'share' of a game "segment". Game rules are written to either have a set side move and then the other side (such as chess), or bust up the turn into an intermingling of initiative back-and-forth. BFE is a mix of both concepts, where each side has a defined turn, but then further segmented by two "action" phases. While that is a bit different, it of course doesn't stop there and the other player can react and thus 'play' inside of the other's turn. In it's different way of handing player movements and fire, it could be argued that each side is really playing a separate turn because there is an amount of the other playing side participating and thus greying the clear borders of older game systems. One thing is for sure and that this is not a traditional set of rules. That blending of turn separation and dual-participation is at the heart of the rules design. Here is what the rules say under Playing the Game-

A battlefield is a confusing place, with many things happening at once. In order to make sense of things, games of Battlefield Evolution take place over several turns. The player who set up his army first will take the first turn. In your turn, you will have a chance to move and fight with each unit you have on the table. Once you have finished, your opponent then has his turn to move and fight with his units. This continues until the battle is complete and a victor is declared!

The word turn is stated four times within this section, and each time is seems to separate and assign the term to mean that each player gets his own. Now we can quickly push off any thought of firing twice, using both actions in your own turn. This could be thought of as the meaning (and maybe the entire meaning) of the limit to two uses. Thus surely, a reaction fire might be used according to how this section is read and understood. What remains of course is a ruling that will just settle the matter simply. I might suggest that predhead place his question in The Rulemasters forum section. Sometimes it is good to get someone asking what would seem to be a no-brainer question that suddenly wakes a lot of the others that are 'focusing too close to the page' to see it with a fresh perspective. :wink: One thing is for sure and that this set of rules (to its credit) is not boring!

By the way predhead, welcome to the Forum here, and you are doing well I'd say in your 2nd post. At least we should be able to nail this down. It is after all, an easy question. :wink:

 

[BuShips]

As I was plodding along all happy, typing up the puzzle, you guys just kept going and figured it out, lol. Well, that says it then. By the specific rules of the backs of the cards, we can then work it backwards and then say that it should work like this.

First, there is a game meeting of course, composed of at least one and maybe more battles. Because of the method of play there might be more than one in an afternoon or evening. Each battle is broken down into game turns, each of which is further broken down into two player turns. Each of these player turns is actually composed of two actions, with possible reactions by the opposite side. So to sum up the game segments, we have reactions, actions, player turns, game turns and finally the "battle" itself. There can be time to play several battles in one session or meeting. There, all nice and tidy. :wink:

 

[Bondarus]

Its a rule I defo agree with.

Infantry, especially ones with no anti tank weapons, don't need anymore trouble than they already have so by putting this rule in, it means infantry are not at such a disadvantage.

Imagine a game where tanks get to fire their main gun theoretically twice every turn. Great for taqnk battles, pants for anything else. :lol:

 

[docrailgun]

Also, all the various faction's tank main guns have a burst area-of-effect for secondary damage. Two (or even three) shots per round would be murder for infantry, even in cover.
I understand that IRL, armor OUGHT to chew up infantry, but that's not much fun in a game.

Imagine a game where tanks get to fire their main gun theoretically twice every turn. Great for taqnk battles, pants for anything else. :lol:

 

[Shadow4ce]

lol, under the armor section, of course, it makes perfect sense now, hehe. Well, come to think about it, reaction is a defensive fire, so... I guess in a somewhat sick and twisted way, it does make sense to put the information on reactions under armor. *shrug*

Anyway, thanks for not flaming the new guy's question. Especially after having it pointed out to me I remember having read it and perhaps suffered some "selective memory" issues.

From a realistic standpoint, I don't like the rule. Especially as more AT units make it in as stated by Predhead. But from a fun and balance point it doesn't matter, so long as we're on the same page.

 

[MongooseMatt]

Hi guys,

The purpose of this rule is to simulate the decreased 'situational awareness' of being locked inside an armoured vehicle. Hence, the only weapons that get to react are those where a crewman is actively sticking his head out of a hatch.

As someone pointed out, it is far easier to snap a shot off with an M4 than a 120mm gun. It is also worth remembering that reactions represent your force _reacting_ to the enemy, not calmly lining up one target after another in perfect unison.

 

[predhead]

By the way predhead, welcome to the Forum here, and you are doing well I'd say in your 2nd post. At least we should be able to nail this down. It is after all, an easy question. :wink:

Thank you! :lol:

I agree with Daddy above, the rate of fire for a main tank gun is such that they should be able to react, and fire twice in the same "turn"...whatever definition you use for it. I know that makes the tank even more formidable, but it appears that on the modern (or near modern) battlefield it is. Cover will help infantry survive; if they utilize terrain to avoid being seen by the tank, they might have a chance to flank it and use AT weapons against it (once the AT weapons come out of course).

 

[predhead]

Hi guys,

The purpose of this rule is to simulate the decreased 'situational awareness' of being locked inside an armoured vehicle. Hence, the only weapons that get to react are those where a crewman is actively sticking his head out of a hatch.

As someone pointed out, it is far easier to snap a shot off with an M4 than a 120mm gun. It is also worth remembering that reactions represent your force _reacting_ to the enemy, not calmly lining up one target after another in perfect unison.

But in a modern armor vehicle, there are such wonderful things such as target aquisitition equipment that make being hatched down not as important, especially if a turn is around 45 seconds or so, if it is.

I will play the rules ahowever my friends want to, but there is at least a good argument for reactiob fire for main guns! :lol: