Races and Fractions - Glornatha

[sidkfjjteidlkkf]

Are races like Dragonewts restricted to the EWF? Can they follow ORlanthi and other gods?

I have not read anything regarding this...

Also, in Glorantha, to be a sorcerer, do you have to be a God Learner?

 

[TRose]

Vast majority of Dragonnewts follow the Draconic way, same as most Trolls follow Kyger Litor and other Darkness Gods and most Elves follow Aldrya and other plant Gods. But there are always a few "Nutcases" or weirdos that will follow some strange and foreign deity like Orlanth. These wack jobs tend to become adventurers .

 

[RosenMcStern]

Ok, let's clarify one point. It is not the 'newts who follow the EWF religion. It is the EWF that follows the 'newts' religion. And it is not their religion, it is the way they are, and they are meant to be. They may become outcasts, and follow other gods, but this means they lose their immortality. Not a good deal, isn't it?

All Malkioni are sorcerers. The God Learner are just a bunch of ruthless Malkioni. And you do not need to be a Malkioni or a God Learner to be a sorcerer. But sorcerers are outcasts in most non-Malkioni societies.

 

[sidkfjjteidlkkf]

Thanks Guys.

 

[kintire]

But sorcerers are outcasts in most non-Malkioni societies.

Actually that's not quite true... yet. Its only after the full folly of the God Learners becomes common knowledge that the backlash against sorcery really sets in.

Of course, a sorcerer in a theist society (for example) will be viewed with some suspicion, but no more so than the priest of a foreign god.

 

[RosenMcStern]

Really? I always thought that Ralian Orlanth hated meldeks (sorcerers) because of Arkat's betrayal of humanity, not of God Learners. IMG, any meldek is an Arkati, rather than a God Learner, in your average Orlanthi's opinion. And since Arkat was evil, all sorcerers are evil. And this was already their opinion in the Second Age.

 

[kintire]

Really? I always thought that Ralian Orlanth hated meldeks (sorcerers) because of Arkat's betrayal of humanity

I believe you are right, Although I doubt the God Learners helped matters! But Ralian Orlanthi are not "Most non-Malkioni societies".

 

[TRose]

I think how sorcerers are viewed would depend on many factors. And also who do you class as a sorcerer. An Orlanthi Noble with EWF breathing down his neck would be more tolerant of a powerful sorcerer then one with worried about the Godslearners next door. While an Orlanthi Farmer living in Ralios next to some Malkioni Farmers would feel they are good people with strange customs if he got along with them, but if he did not then they would be soulless heretics.

 

[richaje]

Really? I always thought that Ralian Orlanth hated meldeks (sorcerers) because of Arkat's betrayal of humanity, not of God Learners. IMG, any meldek is an Arkati, rather than a God Learner, in your average Orlanthi's opinion. And since Arkat was evil, all sorcerers are evil. And this was already their opinion in the Second Age.

Ralian Orlanthi (or just Orlanthi in general) dislike sorcerers because they are ancient foes of the gods and of Orlanth's people. Greg and I have been playing with the idea that in Ralios the Evil Emperor is not normally identified with Yelm - but with Zzabur (and sometimes even with Mostal).

Arkat managed to reinforce this dislike of sorcerers and I suspect that the Ralian tribes opposed the Archons of the Dark Empire.

Jeff

 

[Rurik]

Also, in Glorantha, to be a sorcerer, do you have to be a God Learner?

Short answer: No.

Followers of Malkion (the monotheistic religeon of the Middle Sea Empire a.k.a. "God Learners") are all sorcerers. Not all sorcerers are followers of Malkion (see Carmania in Glorantha: the Second Age for example).

The Middle Sea Empire is the Empire ruled by Jrustela and Seshnela, and it is essentially a mercantile power as it basically controls all of the seas after almost destroying the Waertagi. Malkionism is the Religeon of the Middle Sea Empire, and they are powerful Sorcerers.

"God Learnerism" is essentially a movement among the sorcerers of the Middle Sea Empire. God Learners have figured out how to enter the God Plane of Theistic/Divine beings and abuse, manipulate, or steal from the myths of the other cultures and gain great power from doing so. There are some factions within the Malkioni Church that consider the actions of God Learners as heretical - but since there is great power and wealth gained from the actions of the God Learners it is a very popular movement.

I hope this all helps as a quick and dirty primer to sorcery and God Learners. It is of course a simple overview, some God Learners see themselves as missionaries, benevolently learning of other cultures and hopefully coverting them to the true way, while others unabashedly steal from them for gain (they are just heathens after all) while others want to just wipe them out (Return to Rightness movement).

Note that according to Magic of Glorantha God Learners are 'better' sorcerers than non-God Learner sorcerers. They have some special spells and other spells have improved game effects (usually faster casting).

EDIT: Also, the Mostali are Sorcerers, and definately not God Learners.

 

[Rurik]

On the subject of Orlanthi attitudes towards sorcerers, using the official published Mongoose material (which sometimes differs from the HW/HQ material), in the Ralios supplement there is a table of Clan attitudes towards God Learners (as well as EWF, Foreign Exiles, and Tribal Unity) for the clans of Lankst. Saug is mentioned as hating the EWF and considering the God Learners as 'not so bad'.

So in Mongoose canon not all Ralian Orlanthi hate God Learners, though some certainly do. A favorable attitude towards God Learners would require at least an acceptence of sorcery.

I imagine, from a simple clan members point of view, they would not necessarily understand sorcery as being that different than alien divine magic. God learners worship a strange god and have strange magic, just as Trolls worship strange gods and have strange magic, just as Elves worship strange gods and have strange magic, etc.

 

[RosenMcStern]

Ralian Orlanthi (or just Orlanthi in general) dislike sorcerers because they are ancient foes of the gods and of Orlanth's people. Greg and I have been playing with the idea that in Ralios the Evil Emperor is not normally identified with Yelm - but with Zzabur (and sometimes even with Mostal).

Intriguing :shock:

But it contradicts a lot of [greg-accepted] fan stuff written for HtWW1. However, it might be an illuminating perspective (pun intended).

and I suspect that the Ralian tribes opposed the Archons of the Dark Empire.

GOSH! I had never suspected that! :lol:

 

[zozotroll]

Shocked, shocked I say that Greg would contradict somebody. Next you will be telling me that he changes his mind about things from time to time....

 

[richaje]

Ralian Orlanthi (or just Orlanthi in general) dislike sorcerers because they are ancient foes of the gods and of Orlanth's people. Greg and I have been playing with the idea that in Ralios the Evil Emperor is not normally identified with Yelm - but with Zzabur (and sometimes even with Mostal).

Intriguing :shock:

But it contradicts a lot of [greg-accepted] fan stuff written for HtWW1. However, it might be an illuminating perspective (pun intended).

Never rely upon LARP background for Gloranthan truth! I should know - I have written more than my share!

Jeff

 

[AKAramis]

There is a reason that having one's home-grown additions contradicted is called "being Gregged"...

 

[RosenMcStern]

The HtWW1 sect writeups were written by David Hall and Nick Brooke according to Greg's own instructions. So I had assumed them to be semi-official, although still greggable.

But I do like this Zzabur idea :twisted:

 

[kintire]

Ralios supplement there is a table of Clan attitudes towards God Learners (as well as EWF, Foreign Exiles, and Tribal Unity) for the clans of Lankst. Saug is mentioned as hating the EWF and considering the God Learners as 'not so bad'.

So in Mongoose canon not all Ralian Orlanthi hate God Learners, though some certainly do. A favorable attitude towards God Learners would require at least an acceptence of sorcery.

This is true, but shouldn't be taken too far. Ralios is forced to deal with the two great empires whether it likes them or not, and a decsion to cooperate with the middle sea empire could be driven by many things. Disliking sorcerers is all very well, but practical survival strategies have to be considered.

I imagine, from a simple clan members point of view, they would not necessarily understand sorcery as being that different than alien divine magic. God learners worship a strange god and have strange magic, just as Trolls worship strange gods and have strange magic, just as Elves worship strange gods and have strange magic, etc.

This is definitly true for the "man in the hut" but I believe that by the time MRQ is set, the priests and nobles of the Orlanthi are at least somewhat aware of what the God Learners are up to.

 

[richaje]

The HtWW1 sect writeups were written by David Hall and Nick Brooke according to Greg's own instructions. So I had assumed them to be semi-official, although still greggable.

But I do like this Zzabur idea :twisted:

There's been a lot of development on Malkionism since the days of HtWW1. Most of Nick's core material is still spot on, but some of the peripheral material is out of date. Then again, Nick really didn't give a damn what the Ralian Orlanthi thought.

Jeff

 

[Rurik]

Ralios supplement there is a table of Clan attitudes towards God Learners (as well as EWF, Foreign Exiles, and Tribal Unity) for the clans of Lankst. Saug is mentioned as hating the EWF and considering the God Learners as 'not so bad'.

So in Mongoose canon not all Ralian Orlanthi hate God Learners, though some certainly do. A favorable attitude towards God Learners would require at least an acceptence of sorcery.

This is true, but shouldn't be taken too far. Ralios is forced to deal with the two great empires whether it likes them or not, and a decsion to cooperate with the middle sea empire could be driven by many things. Disliking sorcerers is all very well, but practical survival strategies have to be considered.

True, favorable can mean willingly choosing the lesser of two evils. I felt the need to point out the fact that according to the Mongoose materials there are plenty of Ralian Orlanthi who do not hate sorcerers/god learners.

Looking at the recent history of Ralios, the Middle Sea Empire could be seen as liberators by some Ralian Orlanthi as well. They after all defeated Arkat's Empire and then essentially decided to exert little to no control over the Eastern Wilds and Vemonstran, only really governing Safelster.

I imagine, from a simple clan members point of view, they would not necessarily understand sorcery as being that different than alien divine magic. God learners worship a strange god and have strange magic, just as Trolls worship strange gods and have strange magic, just as Elves worship strange gods and have strange magic, etc.

This is definitly true for the "man in the hut" but I believe that by the time MRQ is set, the priests and nobles of the Orlanthi are at least somewhat aware of what the God Learners are up to.

I imagine the awareness of the what the God Learners are up to plays a lot into the attitudes of different clans. And it is after all the priesthood who largely shapes a man in the hut's view.

Also, clans may be exposed to different kinds of God Learners. Some are benevolent missionaries who are trying to help the pagan people, and as long as they are not too pushy could leave a quite good impression. Others may provide help against the EWF to clans that oppose the Draconic way, and so be useful, while others just blatently abuse and steal from thier myths. So the kind of God Learner a clan's preisthood deals with, and their experiences with them, will largely shape the clans attitude. Did they help defeat the Wyrmfreinds? Then they are good. Did they send mercenaries to defile a holy site and steal an ancient artifact? Then they are bad. Did some Rightness Army fanatics attempt to kill every man woman and child in your clan because you are heathens who can't be saved? And so on.

Also, the God Learners are far from fools, and the most effective plunderers will realise that the longer you can keep the pagans co-operative the more effective their god learning will be, and so will try to leave as favorable impression as possible while concealing their true intentions carefully. And they have all kinds of goodies to seduce the pagan leaders and priests with.

 

[richaje]

Ralios supplement there is a table of Clan attitudes towards God Learners (as well as EWF, Foreign Exiles, and Tribal Unity) for the clans of Lankst. Saug is mentioned as hating the EWF and considering the God Learners as 'not so bad'.

So in Mongoose canon not all Ralian Orlanthi hate God Learners, though some certainly do. A favorable attitude towards God Learners would require at least an acceptence of sorcery.

This is true, but shouldn't be taken too far. Ralios is forced to deal with the two great empires whether it likes them or not, and a decsion to cooperate with the middle sea empire could be driven by many things. Disliking sorcerers is all very well, but practical survival strategies have to be considered.

This is spot on regarding the Orlanthi. The fact is that the Orlanthi will usually ally with the lesser of two evils to survive the greater evil. For example, here is a Talastaring Orlanthi myth from Greg about Enbaktavar (the Talastaring name for Humakt):

"There were two gods in the Dark Times, and both were harsh and cruel.
One had his fortress nearby, and he was terrible and evil. The other
had his fortress far away, and he was terrible but not evil. The god
who was terrible but not evil was called Enbaktavar, and the god who
was terrible and evil is called Shargash. But neither of them wa as
terrible as the Great Eater, whose trolls swarmed everywhere. Yet even
She was not as bad as the Destroyers, the chaos demons. For these
reasons we still revere and respect Enbaktavar, who the missionaries
called Humakt."

Jeff