Questions from Today's game.

[Swiss Tony]

We played 2000 point MEA vs Brits and hafd the following questions:

1) Emplacements...how do they work? Do the troops inside just get +2 to their "To hit" and "kill" number and the stucture is targeted separatley. If you play this way their saeems to be very little benefit from being in a command bunker over a foxhole.

2) Terrain. How far can you see through woods? Our situation was a Warrior was targeting an MEA squad through 8" of wood.


Cheers

PS the MEA got caned....Warriors with APS are very hard even the new Lepoard one on one cann't hurt it with just a single shot from it's suppposedly incredible gun. Anyone else come across this as a problem?

 

[Mr Evil]

well a bunker is harder to assualt.

as for a tank killing a warrior with APS well maybe not make the first shot fired at the warrior be the biggest gun its good but easy to overcome.

 

[retaf33c]

This brings up another question from our game.

The rulebook says:

"Any weapons that allocate Damage Dice (bonus Damage Dice or otherwise) within a certain range (such as most large tank guns) must always allocate at least one of those dice to the structure, if it is with their range."

Could someone explain that to me (and to my group)? We were not sure what this was trying to say.

Is this one die per weapon? So does this mean that a tank firing the main gun must always allocate it to the structure? Or does this apply to the Fire Zone and must allocate the the highest dice first since the structure is the closest target and all the normal shooting rules are suppose to apply? And since it also says:

Shooting and close combat attacks will not harm a structure unless it specifically declared as the target - Otherwise, models are assumed to be trying to shoot through opening at what is inside rather than blast the structure itself."

Then if you are not declaring the structure as a target, then even if you roll a kill against it, I would interpret it to not be harmed.

If it is by weapon and not fire zone, then doesn't that mean that no single shot weapon can ever hit something in a structure?

 

[Mr Evil]

interesting point thier

i see it as you roll all your dice together as per rules then allocate them in order of closest gets hightest result and so on, now the tank gun can be allocated at the bunker as its a large enough size, or you couls allocate the tank gun at a tnak in the fire zone, and the rest of the dice at the unit in the bunker minus 1 as that is ollocated to the building, what that sorta means is its a little harder to suppress troops in a bunker i spose.

 

[retaf33c]

We had a tough time understanding just what the rule was saying.

As we read it, if you declare target as the structure, you cannot hurt anyone else in the fire zone as it says:

"If the structure is declared as the target, other models within the Fire Zone will not be affected by the attack (unless, of course, the structure is destroyed."

A strict reading of this means if a model, (tank or trooper) next to the building is in the fire zone, and you declared the structure as the target, it can't be harmed.

However, if you don't don't declare the target as the structure, you still must allocate some dice to it (we could decide if it was one per fire zone or one per weapon - we assumed Fire Zone) but then you can't harm the structure.

 

[Mr Evil]

yup id say one per fire zone.

well in theory you have the coice of chucking a rubbish miss at the building say a 2 or if a tank gun or heavy weapon fires into the zone and happenes to get a nice juicy hit number then rther than alocate it to the guy, you can allocate it to the building representing the tank gunner getting clever with his choice of fire priority.

in a way you in charege of telling them your men what to do, but when the dice roll they sorta tell you what to if that makes sence. think of it as a internal AI within the game.

 

[cordas]

Is it not one of the bonus DD that must be applied to the structure if its within the blast radius, rather than the actual shot itself?

 

[Mr Evil]

no idea, what page is it on and il take a look

 

[retaf33c]

Page 25 of the rule book. First three paragraphs in the first column.

 

[The Old Soldier]

FYI: It is talking about any weapon that produces a secondary FZ within the primary FZ. Example: A explosion from a MBTs main gun, or a AT-14 Kornet. Now I do not have the main book yet, but it seems to follow much in the manner of SST.

I'll use the Main gun from a M1A2: Say the main gun targets say infantry in a building. The main gun only rolls 1D10+4 and it would create a FZ as normal. The model that was first targeted would receive the 1D10+4. There would then be a secondary FZ of 2" created from that model. The rules on the tank card says each model other than the target receives a D6+1 including the building.

 

[retaf33c]

The first paragraph seems very straight forward:

Shooting and close combat attacks will not harm a structure unless it specifically declared as the target - otherwise, models are assumed to be trying to shoot through opening at what is inside rather than blast the structure itself. If the structure is declared as the target, other models within the Fire Zone will not be affected by the attack (unless, of course, the structure is destroyed).

The last sentence is key: if the structure is the target, then other models within the Fire Zone are not affected by the attack. Not affected by the attack, to me, includes any secondary FZ.

Where as the second paragraph

Any weapons that allocate Damage Dice (bonus Damage Dice or otherwise) within a certain range (such as most large tank guns) must always allocate at least one of those dice to the structure, if it is with their range.

says that even if you don't target the structure, at least one die must be allocated to it when there is a secondary FZ.

But because it wasn't the target doesn't that mean it can't be harmed?

 

[BuShips]

The first paragraph seems very straight forward:

Shooting and close combat attacks will not harm a structure unless it specifically declared as the target - otherwise, models are assumed to be trying to shoot through opening at what is inside rather than blast the structure itself. If the structure is declared as the target, other models within the Fire Zone will not be affected by the attack (unless, of course, the structure is destroyed).

The last sentence is key: if the structure is the target, then other models within the Fire Zone are not affected by the attack. Not affected by the attack, to me, includes any secondary FZ.

Where as the second paragraph

Any weapons that allocate Damage Dice (bonus Damage Dice or otherwise) within a certain range (such as most large tank guns) must always allocate at least one of those dice to the structure, if it is with their range.

says that even if you don't target the structure, at least one die must be allocated to it when there is a secondary FZ.

But because it wasn't the target doesn't that mean it can't be harmed?

I do not think that those two statements are in conflict. The term "Model" usually means infantry and armored vehicles and not structures really. If you are trying to take the building down you are aiming at the foundation and not just poking random holes in it as such. So if you think you can collapse the structure you get a bonus attack on the infantry occupying it. If you just shoot enough times at the infantry (or vehicle tucked inside) you also get a chance to do damage to the building each time that you fire. So even if you were not targeting the building specifically you might also collapse the building as a side-effect of aiming at its occupants.

 

[The Old Soldier]

Well retaf, your half right.

If you target the structure, then the models in it are unharmed. BY normal means. But they still might be hit by secondary damage. If you target the troops in the building the the building itself will take secondary damage.

I tend to go with the CARD overrides the normal rules. Just as it does on the rule sheet.

 

[retaf33c]

I understand and accept the second part about a die of secondary blast damage being allocated to the building. Unless something other than D6+1 for secondary blast is somewhere in the future, only primative buildings with a target of 7 are going to be affective. All other structures have at least an 8 for a target so it won't be affective anyway.

As for the first paragraph. If you are saying that models in a structure are affected by blast damage even if the structure is the target of the attack, then I don't agree. The blast from a shell hit or Area of Effect (AOE) isn't another attack, it is one shot where the center of the blast takes the full effect while those around take a lesser hit. You don't treat an AOE as a different attack. And since it is part of the declared attack against the structure, then other models in the Fire Zone will not be affected by blast damage.

 

[The Old Soldier]

You are correct about the targeting of the building. Like I said, I don't even have the adv. rule book. Just using common sense based on the knowlege of the SST game. But, it would make sense to me that such a rule has included, after all the point were the building was targeted would create a huge amount of collateral damage! 8)

Well I guess that straightens things out. BTW: Your buddies are still wrong about how to use a FZ and LOS. :lol:

 

[retaf33c]

You are correct about the targeting of the building. Like I said, I don't even have the adv. rule book. Just using common sense based on the knowlege of the SST game. But, it would make sense to me that such a rule has included, after all the point were the building was targeted would create a huge amount of collateral damage! 8)

In game this weekend I unloaded a squad of Fedayeen from a technical and then moved them into a 8" tall structure (4 stories). My next turn I moved them up to the second floor and took two shots with the gunners at a Type 99 MBT. Missed with both.

The Type 99 with its first shoot action targeted the structure. The structure was an office building so its target and kill were 8 & 11. Because the structure was over 8" tall it got a +1 to both making the target and kill 9 & 12. He rolled a 9 for his D10+4 damage causing the structure to collapse; each Fedayeen took D10 damage. I lost all but one sniper.

In the second game it took over 8 shots on the building before bring it down. By that time I only had 3 guys left; yes they all died.

Buildings offer a great shooting advantage, but they can be death traps.

BTW: Your buddies are still wrong about how to use a FZ and LOS. :lol:

I know. I took a diagram somebody did and along with your post as the explanation I did up an unofficial FAQ. I'll have it for them at our next game.

 

[lastbesthope]

This thread has made me realise I actually need to read one of the two copies of the Advanced book that I own. In my defence I have been on holiday for the fortnight directly after i bought it

LBH