Question on Sensor effectiveness

[Condottiere]

Someone has to create, maintain, and police, standards.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Regina, the original not the retcon.

A planet with a native TL of 10. It has a starport type A. It has a TL15 IN base, it has an IISS base, it has a megacorporation military shipyard that builds to TL15.

The system design rules in Traveller do not take into account membership of a multi-world polity, that is for the referee (or game author) to take into account.

 

[MasterGwydion]

The system design rules in Traveller do not take into account membership of a multi-world polity, that is for the referee (or game author) to take into account.

The publishers developed a system which cannot be used to design a multi-world polity. All it can be used for is building individual systems. Traveller has no polity generator as far as I know. It is one of the reasons that Charted Space makes no sense. Every single system was built in isolation, and the publishers tried to glue everything together with "creative explaining". It also doesn't take into account colonies having support from the parent world. That is why story-wise and system-wise, Charted Space can't be randomly built by the rules.

Guess what? You know why there is no polity generator in Traveller? Because polities are created by economics. Guess what Traveller has never defined? Economics of multi-world polities. No economics, no possibility of a multi-world polity generator.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Someone has to create, maintain, and police, standards.

That should be the Mongoose publishing staff.

 

[swordtart]

The system design rules in Traveller do not take into account membership of a multi-world polity, that is for the referee (or game author) to take into account.

I think GURPS traveller tried to address this but probably not entirely successfully (as you still need to accommodate all those historic systems that were created entirely randomly). The trade rules in Far Trader certainly tried to adjust prices based on the proximity of other systems and I vaguely recall some sort of interstellar importance and economic influence metric but to be honest it was a long time ago (in a galaxy far away).

The roll randomly method is no worse or better than the old random dungeon generators or wandering monster tables in the early D&D, it is a quick and dirty way to get some locations on a map with something to say about each of them. How they interact probably won't be discovered by Travellers who might only stop in a system once in the campaign. Do you remember the subtle inter tribal politics in B2 The Keep on the Borderlands.? Probably not if you were a player. You would have likely just crashed the goblin camp, killed everything that moved, stole everything not nailed down (and you probably had a crowbar to minimise that risk as well), went back to the keep, spent your loot and came back and did the same thing with the Ogres.

Most players will happily ignore any carefully crafted interstellar politics unless it involves a pay check and even then they generally go for the best paid or the one that sounds most fun. The kind of players who are good at politicking tend to run rings around the referee (as they have nothing else to do and you are generally doing a hundred other things to keep everyone else happy) and the others get bored and sabotage it all anyway and make all the careful prep you did nugatory - not that I am bitter

If PCs were in Game of Thrones they'd be Joffrey and Cersei rather than Tyrion and Varys.

Convoluted plot is for novels, not evening social gaming in my experience. Unlike Field of Dreams, if you build it, they won't come (unless it is to bomb it).

 

[MasterGwydion]

I think GURPS traveller tried to address this but probably not entirely successfully (as you still need to accommodate all those historic systems that were created entirely randomly). The trade rules in Far Trader certainly tried to adjust prices based on the proximity of other systems and I vaguely recall some sort of interstellar importance and economic influence metric but to be honest it was a long time ago (in a galaxy far away).

The roll randomly method is no worse or better than the old random dungeon generators or wandering monster tables in the early D&D, it is a quick and dirty way to get some locations on a map with something to say about each of them. How they interact probably won't be discovered by Travellers who might only stop in a system once in the campaign. Do you remember the subtle inter tribal politics in B2 The Keep on the Borderlands.? Probably not if you were a player. You would have likely just crashed the goblin camp, killed everything that moved, stole everything not nailed down (and you probably had a crowbar to minimise that risk as well), went back to the keep, spent your loot and came back and did the same thing with the Ogres.

Most players will happily ignore any carefully crafted interstellar politics unless it involves a pay check and even then they generally go for the best paid or the one that sounds most fun. The kind of players who are good at politicking tend to run rings around the referee (as they have nothing else to do and you are generally doing a hundred other things to keep everyone else happy) and the others get bored and sabotage it all anyway and make all the careful prep you did nugatory - not that I am bitter

If PCs were in Game of Thrones they'd be Joffrey and Cersei rather than Tyrion and Varys.

Convoluted plot is for novels, not evening social gaming in my experience. Unlike Field of Dreams, if you build it, they won't come (unless it is to bomb it).

I will say that 90% of the people that I have ever gamed with would agree with you and are just hack and slash. Nothing wrong with that. It is a fun way to game, but it doesn't help you worldbuild. So, if you want to actually build a setting, then you actually need to build the setting, even if the only people who ever see it are the writers writing future material. Charted Space is an actual setting, so it should actually be developed and not randomly rolled. Since We can't start over with the whole thing, we try and make adjustments where we can to improve the game itself and the setting as well. Conversations like these help refine the system and the Charted Space setting. Heck, currently we don't even know how many nobles are in the 3I or even what their responsibilities are. That is not creating a setting.

 

[Anstett]

If PCs were in Game of Thrones they'd be Joffrey and Cersei rather than Tyrion and Varys.

Convoluted plot is for novels, not evening social gaming in my experience. Unlike Field of Dreams, if you build it, they won't come (unless it is to bomb it).

That is the beauty of a play by post game like mine. I have my Cersei types and my Varys types all able to add their bits to the plot as they want to.

Or to put in a different dynamic the tension between those who need to know where everything is on a deck plan and those who are happy to know there is a stateroom next to the common area.

 

[Vormaerin]

The roll randomly method is so you can generate an entire sector in reasonably short order and record it on a single sheet of paper. It is designed to give you prompts to your creativity, not constrain it. That's pretty useful when homebrewing if you want a large scale.

But it does expect that you are putting your own creativity and interests into the actual results for any location that the players aren't just doing a flyby.

Obviously, the fact that Charted Space has largely developed from many such random generation sectors by various original people poses some issues if you buy Charted Space hoping to have everything spelled out for you in nice, explicit detail. At some point, someone is going to turn these intentionally fuzzy values into a concrete world description. And, right from the very beginning with the Keith Brothers' Referees Guide to World Building in JTAS, it followed the Book 3 advice of not letting the numbers act as a straitjacket.

A single number for an entire world can't be that precise. What is the TL of Earth? Are we talking about what the US military can do? Or what the average citizen of Bangladesh can get locally? What the average person by population has? Those would be three different answers.

Even the physical stats are not as precise as one might want. Mercury, Ganymede, and Callisto are three very different worlds that have the same UPP for size, atmosphere, and hydrographics.

The text needs to explain the details of the quick reference values, not the other way around.

 

[MasterGwydion]

The roll randomly method is so you can generate an entire sector in reasonably short order and record it on a single sheet of paper. It is designed to give you prompts to your creativity, not constrain it. That's pretty useful when homebrewing if you want a large scale.

But it does expect that you are putting your own creativity and interests into the actual results for any location that the players aren't just doing a flyby.

Obviously, the fact that Charted Space has largely developed from many such random generation sectors by various original people poses some issues if you buy Charted Space hoping to have everything spelled out for you in nice, explicit detail. At some point, someone is going to turn these intentionally fuzzy values into a concrete world description. And, right from the very beginning with the Keith Brothers' Referees Guide to World Building in JTAS, it followed the Book 3 advice of not letting the numbers act as a straitjacket.

A single number for an entire world can't be that precise. What is the TL of Earth?

7

Are we talking about what the US military can do? Or what the average citizen of Bangladesh can get locally? What the average person by population has? Those would be three different answers.

Based on discussions here it was what is available to the general population of the planet. People in Bangladesh can order the same tech as you and I can. They may not be able to afford it, but it is available. That is why TL is by planet and not by country. I live in Honduras. Most of these people who do not live in the cities do not even have running water or toilets, but they have the latest iPhones.

Even the physical stats are not as precise as one might want. Mercury, Ganymede, and Callisto are three very different worlds that have the same UPP for size, atmosphere, and hydrographics.

Right and a pop code of 6 could be 1,000,000 or 9,999,999 or anywhere in between. There is variation in each UWP code. Hydro code 4 could be 36% or 45% or anywhere in between, but it can't be 56% and still be hydro 4. So, obviously you can obey the UWP codes and they can still be vastly different places. You don't need to violate the rules to do that.

The text needs to explain the details of the quick reference values, not the other way around.

Agreed, but the text must fall within the established definitions of those reference values.

 

[hopsnbaer]

You should also think about the government type of the world. A balkanized world could easily have different TL's available, while a single government controlling the world may have a more even TL for the entire planet.

 

[MasterGwydion]

You should also think about the government type of the world. A balkanized world could easily have different TL's available, while a single government controlling the world may have a more even TL for the entire planet.

Earth is a Balkanized World and you can get the same stuff in 3rd world countries as you can in the manufacturing and financial centers.

 

[hopsnbaer]

Earth is a Balkanized World and you can get the same stuff in 3rd world countries as you can in the manufacturing and financial centers.

The CSC Availability table shows that higher TL items are available at lower TL levels, but are harder to get. There could easily be different TL bases for different polities on a balkanized world.

 

[MasterGwydion]

The CSC Availability table shows that higher TL items are available at lower TL levels, but are harder to get. There could easily be different TL bases for different polities on a balkanized world.

As long as there is no trade between them, yes. Remember, TL is a generalization at the planetary level. It was never intended to represent individual nation-states on a planet.

 

[swordtart]

TL isn't clear cut for systems. It represents the average or maximum or minimum TL for the main world or majority of the main world or the main world if everyone lived in the most advanced city, or any of the other planets in the system, but not the star port because that is different, unless they have a technology ban like Pavabid, but they also use grav devices to keep their palace up, but none of their people understand that so that is OK, other than those in the enclave of the starport, or who maybe see a starship, but they never land there, apart from that time a random group of space bums manage it entirely easily because it is an adventure and err... well they can't defend against technology they deny exists, but still use... err... but apart from that, TL is definitely what they can make locally, unless they import a fabricator, but it is the limit on what they can repair, even like replacing a battery... unless they create a prototype technology... or unless they just copy it or use a fabricator, or...

It is clearer for equipment, but even then it is fogged by the rather vague definitions of technology once you get outside what we are familiar with. I am not sure what the difference between TL8, TL12 and TL15 fusion plants are other than it gests smaller (and more expensive per point of power). A TL11 Laser Pistol is just a lighter more damaging version of the TL9 Laser Pistol. It is just the Traveller equivalent of a +1 Sword and about as logical.

Personally I tend to use it as a guideline. Its a science fiction game and if I wanted to play D&D I'd dig out my 2nd Edition stuff. Buying higher spec stuff is the way you improve in the game and the fluff for that is that it's higher tech. Those words sound fine in my head, I don't need a formula or even an actual number.

Sadly it's the ridiculous contortions that some gatekeepers of the game expect you to endure that makes TL so irritating. Sometimes it is easier to just ignore it.

 

[MasterGwydion]

TL isn't clear cut for systems. It represents the average or maximum or minimum TL for the main world or majority of the main world or the main world if everyone lived in the most advanced city, or any of the other planets in the system, but not the star port because that is different, unless they have a technology ban like Pavabid, but they also use grav devices to keep their palace up, but none of their people understand that so that is OK, other than those in the enclave of the starport, or who maybe see a starship, but they never land there, apart from that time a random group of space bums manage it entirely easily because it is an adventure and err... well they can't defend against technology they deny exists, but still use... err... but apart from that, TL is definitely what they can make locally, unless they import a fabricator, but it is the limit on what they can repair, even like replacing a battery... unless they create a prototype technology... or unless they just copy it or use a fabricator, or...

It is clearer for equipment, but even then it is fogged by the rather vague definitions of technology once you get outside what we are familiar with. I am not sure what the difference between TL8, TL12 and TL15 fusion plants are other than it gests smaller (and more expensive per point of power). A TL11 Laser Pistol is just a lighter more damaging version of the TL9 Laser Pistol. It is just the Traveller equivalent of a +1 Sword and about as logical.

Personally I tend to use it as a guideline. Its a science fiction game and if I wanted to play D&D I'd dig out my 2nd Edition stuff. Buying higher spec stuff is the way you improve in the game and the fluff for that is that it's higher tech. Those words sound fine in my head, I don't need a formula or even an actual number.

Sadly it's the ridiculous contortions that some gatekeepers of the game expect you to endure that makes TL so irritating. Sometimes it is easier to just ignore it.

Play your game how you want, but how do you worldbuild if your game terms have no clear meanings? You can't worldbuild using rules if all of the stats in the game are so vague as to be meaningless. A definition needs to be set, defined in the first chapter of the CRB and be done with it. That is what every writer will use from here on out. I can play a game without rules. It is easy. It is just collective storytelling. You cannot, on the other hand, worldbuild without rules, either provided by someone else or created yourself. You certainly cannot worldbuild using rules and then have your writers ignore those rules in every product that they put out.

Having rules in a game isn't "gatekeeping" any more than requiring seatbelts in cars is gatekeeping, but calling it gatekeeping when it isn't is called gaslighting.

 

[Vormaerin]

That is the beauty of a play by post game like mine. I have my Cersei types and my Varys types all able to add their bits to the plot as they want to.

Or to put in a different dynamic the tension between those who need to know where everything is on a deck plan and those who are happy to know there is a stateroom next to the common area.

Mostly the issue for the Varys types is that the GM is unlikely to be able to give them the wealth of information that such people need to actually be effective. That kind of thing is difficult to delegate to the character the way sword skill is.

Back on the subject of Tech level, I think that Traveller tries to be overly granular so that TL uses the same hexadecimal scheme as the rest of the shorthand for characters and worlds. That's cute and everything, but it's overkill. I doubt most people can visualize the difference between a TL 13 world and a TL14 world. And space colonies that are part of an interstellar state are not going to be neatly siloed in their technology the way Earth is. Because they have the option not to be.

 

[MonsterX]

Mostly the issue for the Varys types is that the GM is unlikely to be able to give them the wealth of information that such people need to actually be effective. That kind of thing is difficult to delegate to the character the way sword skill is.

I seems to me there are two potential issues here: 1) the Referee hasn't worked out that information yet, and it can be a little dangerous to do it on the fly - since it might end up contradicting something, or take the PCs down the wrong path somehow and 2) giving the PC all the relevant detail means either writing up an info dump to read between sessions (good, except not all players read it and those who don't end up mystified), or telling in game, which take up a lot of time.

My players end up in a lot of political games. To give them enough info, I tend to ask for skill roles on whatever skill seems to involve an appropriate knowledge base - the player can also suggest something - it could be modified by INT, EDU, or SOC depending on the issue in question (these are almost always knowledge or interpersonal skills, but in principle it could be anything). Then I give an amount of information depending on the effect - but also edited according to the effect - if the effect is very high, the information will be designed to lead the players on the right path, or to give some good options (insofar as their are good options - least bad options in some cases, and there will be an in-between game info dump for context). If the roll is failed, it will be a bunch of random background facts, and a very bad roll will mean very vague info, incorrect info, or "I don't know".

 

[Sigtrygg]

Back on the subject of Tech level, I think that Traveller tries to be overly granular so that TL uses the same hexadecimal scheme as the rest of the shorthand for characters and worlds. That's cute and everything, but it's overkill. I doubt most people can visualize the difference between a TL 13 world and a TL14 world. And space colonies that are part of an interstellar state are not going to be neatly siloed in their technology the way Earth is. Because they have the option not to be.

I don't see the point of the higher TLs as they are:
badly explained and illustrated
difficult to comprehend in terms of societal and cultural change.

I have posted this before, this is how I adapt the TL scale

TL7 now
TL8 near future techno thriller
TL9 solar system scale, reaction drive, AI, robots, cybernetics, bioengineering, cloning
TL10 gravitics, jump drive, wafer tech, antimatter
TL12 meson, damper, fusion+

 

[Vormaerin]

That's pretty similar to what I do, except I don't generally bother to distinguish between your 7 & 8.

And I suppose I put antimatter/zero point energy in the future tech camp, unless I'm running a Culture era game.

 

[NOLATrav]

I use a 5-step TL progression:
TL-2 = Early
TL-1 = Basic
TL+0 = Standard
TL+1 = Advanced
TL+2 = Ultimate

Early is big, heavy, expensive (2 disadvantages). Standard is what’s in the books. Ultimate is smaller, lighter, cheaper (2 advantages).

TL7 now
TL8 early fusion
TL9 early lifters
TL10 early m-drive
TL11 early j-drive