AnotherDilbert
Emperor Mongoose
How many valves are made each year, compared to how many transistors, and how much do they cost.
Valves are a very expensive niche...
Question on Sensor effectiveness
- Thread starter Sageryne
- Start date
Valves are a very expensive niche...
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
Dammit! I have been doing it wrong! Thank you for finding that rule.
AnotherDilbert
Emperor Mongoose
Quite, until you reverse the TL difference...
High tech is a massive advantage, as it should be.
No Vacuum Tubs fit a different but large market they are not niche. Transistors and microchips are great for low power applications which is why they are dominant in homes and small businesses but they do not handle adverse environments or high power uses. Just because you don’t see them in your home doesn’t mean they are not commonly used. You can’t use transistors for laser cutters, MIRs, CT Scans they can’t handle the power. Look at the extremes that we go to keep computers cool and they are low power applications any thing that requires significant power is using vacuum tubes. So not niche just not something your going to see in your home or other low power environment.
Did you even bother to read the last article here it is again.
Are Vacuum Tubes Still Used (& What Are They Used for)?
Are vacuum tubes still used in this day & age, & if so, what are vacuum tubes used for? We explain 12 vacuum tube uses (& yes, vacuum tubes are still made)
pentalabs.com
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
I hope they consolidate the sensor rules in the upcoming High Guard Update.Dammit! I have been doing it wrong! Thank you for finding that rule.
Sageryne
Cosmic Mongoose
Thanks go to Swiftdraw on Reddit:Dammit! I have been doing it wrong! Thank you for finding that rule.
Being a new to Traveller, he read things more closely than I did.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
I recall someone telling me that vacuum tubes aren't affected by an electromagnetic pulse.
It would be easier to build a steam engine now and more efficient. They are expensive one-offs because there is no demand for them other than as hobby projects rather than because we have forgotten how to build a steam engine factory.
That is not true of a TL12 scout. They are still being built to the TL12 designs as there is still a demand. A TL15 factory should have access to more effective automation and robot assembly.
You only suffer the Retrotech parts issue if you are applying the Retrotech rules and these do not apply to ship components. A TL12 power plant made in a TL15 factory to TL12 designs costs exactly the same as one made at a TL12 facility and either can be maintained perfectly well at a TL12 repair facility.
It might make economic sense to import the lower TL components but only if you demand for TL15 starships is unsaturated. If you are not overworked you make as much money building a the basic hull regardless of the TL.
EDIT:
I posted this late it seems many of these points have already been made. We'll have to agree to disagree, as this is all now opinion rather than a rules based discussion.
Last edited:
Fluffy Bunny Feet
Emperor Mongoose
If you feel that some bonus is needed for such then give the ship the quirk "Well maintained: Reduce all
maintenance costs by 50%" though you might make that 50% into 10% per TL higher the shipyard is than needed to build it. Or make repair rolls have a bonus of 1/TL higher the shipyard was than required to build it.
CordwainerFish
Emperor Mongoose
I'd expect the mid to high end amps to be DSP, because transistors used as analog amps sound like ass when they're overdriven.
A better example of old tech that is still being used where new tech is available is books, we have electronic books, but we still have paperbacks. We have had the "paperless office" for decades. We still have printers. Printer technology has moved on but we still use paper.
We are making paper differently to the way it was done in the 13th century (and the 11th century and the 1st century) and it is vastly cheaper as a result but a 13th century book binder would have no difficulty using the modern material to make a book.
We are making paper differently to the way it was done in the 13th century (and the 11th century and the 1st century) and it is vastly cheaper as a result but a 13th century book binder would have no difficulty using the modern material to make a book.
Last edited:
For the most part and that why all militaries still use them
The other thing to bear in mind is that you do not always need the same level of technology to repair something as you do to manufacture it. The first production line made cars were still repaired by local blacksmiths.
Currently there is a tendency for manufacturers to design in prevention to repair and build in obsolescence and that makes things difficult, but if the manufacturer wanted to make things repairable at a low technology they certainly could. There is a fascinating TED talk about an incubator designed using Toyota car parts to simplify the repair and supply issue for third world towns.
If we accept that there are as many TL10, or TL12 decades old ships in regular service as Traveller asks us to accept then built in obsolescence is not a thing and "right to repair" is likely enshrined in Imperial Law. Maintenance is a fairly painless process. In MGT2 (at least) it only needs a single week every year to conduct the major overhaul with the monthly maintenance so trivial it is glossed over other than as a cost. We could safely extrapolate that a shipyard at any TL can maintain any TL ship. When it comes to repairs then the only consideration is the availability of higher TL components (which can be shipped in if replacement is required but those components are also likely to have lower tech sacrificial parts (fuses etc) that are likely commonly in stock where repair of the component is possible.
Ergo if the TL of the ship is determined by the "ship" rather than any of its parts then logistics is only an issue as an edge condition (i.e. when the referee wants it to be and even then only after major damage has occurred).
Currently there is a tendency for manufacturers to design in prevention to repair and build in obsolescence and that makes things difficult, but if the manufacturer wanted to make things repairable at a low technology they certainly could. There is a fascinating TED talk about an incubator designed using Toyota car parts to simplify the repair and supply issue for third world towns.
If we accept that there are as many TL10, or TL12 decades old ships in regular service as Traveller asks us to accept then built in obsolescence is not a thing and "right to repair" is likely enshrined in Imperial Law. Maintenance is a fairly painless process. In MGT2 (at least) it only needs a single week every year to conduct the major overhaul with the monthly maintenance so trivial it is glossed over other than as a cost. We could safely extrapolate that a shipyard at any TL can maintain any TL ship. When it comes to repairs then the only consideration is the availability of higher TL components (which can be shipped in if replacement is required but those components are also likely to have lower tech sacrificial parts (fuses etc) that are likely commonly in stock where repair of the component is possible.
Ergo if the TL of the ship is determined by the "ship" rather than any of its parts then logistics is only an issue as an edge condition (i.e. when the referee wants it to be and even then only after major damage has occurred).
Last edited:
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
You can try to isolate the aspects and effects that are actually would be improved by a stated increased technological level, and ones that are static.
Like sensors, for one, and self sealing hulls, on the other.
Like sensors, for one, and self sealing hulls, on the other.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
Where in your delusion does this make sense? Are you trying to further make TL a useless bit of information? Can you explain to Me, why you wish for all of the stats in Traveller to mean nothing? How many times do I have to say it???
IF YOUR TERM USAGE BECOMES SO BROAD THAT IT MEANS NOTHING, THEN WE WON'T HAVE A GAME TO PLAY!!!
Remember, if everyone is special, then no one is. If TL no longer means TL, then what does it mean? How about population? How about tonnage and deciding what things that take up space require tonnage and which don't? Here is the simple solution... Quit trying to be clever. Quit trying to bend the meanings of things.
and most of all, QUIT TRYING TO RATIONALIZE POOR WRITING AND QUALITY CONTROL AS INTENTIONAL GAME DESIGN CHOICES. It cheapens the game and the language and leads to idiotic ideas like TL and population are meaningless. Really? Meaningless? Then why do they exist in the game?
Friend please chill out and don't all-caps at people over a fun game of imaginary spaceships just because they run their imaginary spaceship game a bit differently from you.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
Congratulations for completely missing the point. They can run it however they want at their tables, but not when writing the books. Morons on this site have argued that the Population UWP code doesn't mean what it says in the books, because people want to think they are clever when coming up with reasons that the publishers didn't do a horrible job and the end consumers of said products are left to come up with reasons for why stupidity makes sense. Such as calling a population 3 planet because you do not count the other sophonts. Or saying that another planet only has Pop Code 1, but its economy is powered by millions of robots, but that is not reflected in any of the formulas for planetary economics, because those formulas are based on the UWP pop code. So, now We need to come up with reasons for that pop code to not work in published materials such as the WBH.
If you guys keep diluting the published meanings of terms to fit mistakes made by the publishers, then eventually the terms mean nothing. How often on here have you heard people discussing what the term Tech Level means?
According the the CRB, this is the definition of TL,
"TECH LEVELS The concept of Tech Levels (or TL) runs through Traveller in most of its universes. Tech Levels measure the scientific capacity of a world and the complexity and effectiveness of a piece of equipment."
Last edited:
So that's going to depend on setting a bit. Inside the Imperium, where the starports are run by the Imperium directly and are independent of the world, then it's likely that there are certain standards. And the question is going to be mainly about starport rating. Your ability to do maintenance at an E port is minimal and pretty sketchy at a D port. I would say that any C or better port in the Imperium could handle repairs of basically anything that comes through that isn't some kind of funky prototype or custom unit.
On the other hand, outside of the Imperium you don't have that kind of centralized standards and the ports are probably locally maintained, making the local system's rating much more significant.
And if you aren't playing in Charted Space at all, it could be essentially whatever you want depending on how you have your society organized.
I think that aligns to my thinking.
The TL of a world is that of the world, not the Starport which by definition needs to be able to service star ships (at some level). Even Type E's can provide a hub to order parts into (subject to the proximity of higher class star ports) though you would need to provide your own skilled labour. Given the lack of facilities to conduct even hull repairs at a class E you might also expect there to be a few scrapyards or just wrecks around for all the damaged ships that were forced to land there (or were fine until they let the Steward hot-dog the landing) and that could not be repaired.
Even in non-chartered space the class of the star port is determined before and independently of the TL of the world . The only determining factor is population (presumably to model the influence of the market volume). My quick view indicates that with all modifiers even a a TL5 world can have a Class A star port. I am not sure if this is an MGT2 artifact or has always been the case.
If a referee wants to end their campaign (or turn it into a low tech survival adventure) because players have landed on a TL1 world and can't get their ship fixed even though it has a Class C star port then that is a referee choice, there is no baked in justification to force a referee down that route.
The story is the main concern.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
Average traffic at a Class-C starport would still mean that they weren't stuck there for more than a few weeks. Long enough for one adventure. Should be able to buy some spares from the visiting ships with money made from the local adventure. Then off they go. In order to be a Class-C starport, it must contain at least 200 tons of shipyard, so the labor should be available.
