Question on Sensor effectiveness

[tytalan]

Yet that is the rule...

Don't build Scouts at TL-15 military yards, build them at smaller TL-12 yard to keep them going.



Would it be easier to build a steam engine at TL-5 or TL-8?
Now at TL-8 we have no factories building standard steam engines, so steam engines become expensive one-offs. A TL-8 diesel engine on the other hand can be supplied quickly and cheaply.

Today we build TL-8 ships, not ironclads or wooden sailships...

If you built an assembly line designed to build steam engines it would be cheaper to build them at TL 5 standards using TL 8 systems. As for 1 offs all ships are one offs their slight variations in all ships of the same class so that’s a wash. We build diesel engines because they have a better mass to power ratio not because they are easier to manufacture, they are not. It no more difficult to build a factory that builds steam engines than it is to build one that builds diesel engines.

Today we build TL-8 ships we also build TL-7 ships, TL-6 ships. Freighters built today have little to no difference systems than those built 75 years ago. Your whole argument is assuming there’s no reason to still build lower TL and because we have more advanced TL stuff it’s just magically harder to build lower TL and that’s just not true.

To use your same example why do we still use TL5 diesel engines for most freighters and not TL8 Fission power plants? Many of the diesel engines being built today are no different from the one built durning WW2, exact same parts and specifications the only difference is they are cheaper to build now. Using your example most imperial Freetraders can not operate in the Trojan Reach since they can’t often get TL 15 parts.

This rule unfortunately is based on the concept that you are designing and building a new ship type which is not always the case. This is definitely a case of RAI with common sense injected instead of RAW ignoring common sense.

 

[Condottiere]

Also, built in obsolescence.

You want something that you can constantly replace.

Well, capitalists do.

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

Which doesn’t make sense because that means you will have for example scout couriers designed at TL 12 that are TL 13,14,15 each requiring different TL Starports to maintain the ship especially when off the main routes where TL 15 parts are not available. That or ships are only built in ship yards of their TL which would mean you need 5 different classes of Free Traders one for each TL the ship is built on. Plus it’s easier to build lower TL thing with higher TL manufacturing without advancing the TL of what your building

You can build the lower TL in higher TL ports. The quality should be higher as they have improved alloys for example if for no other reason than quality control has them be more uniform between batches. A Model T engine built today would be of better quality because of the greater precision in the manufacture of components, all components would be closer to the targets originally set with lesser variance.

 

[Sageryne]

If I have to force My players, I am in the wrong job. If they want an upgrade for their ship, they need a shipyard (or workshop if it is a minor component) of equal or higher TL than their ship because they have to get the parts and refits are hard to do in space.

My players are chronic wanderers. The second an adventure is over, they want to move on.

I am the type of GM who likes to plan adventures and locations in advance. Having a ship that can jump in any direction makes that a little hard.

I have negotiated with my players so they let me know where they want to go at the end of each session so I can plan and develop the next locations.

However, sometimes it is nice to use a location for more than just one encounter. When I say I force my players to find a shipyard, I let them know several jumps in advance. They get to choose the destination. They negotiate with the shipyard and they know they will be in one place for two or three sessions.

There are many GM fiats that I could use to keep them in place. Ship maintenance seems to me the least coercive way.

- Kerry

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

Actually you can down tech level there is no rule that says you can’t. A real world example would be the original VW bug it’s a WW1 car that was still being build in countries around the world using the say tech level parts well into the 70s. Just because your manufacturing TL goes up doesn’t mean you have to build more complex machinery in fact it often means it’s cheaper to build the less complex machinery.

I've seen video of a VW Beetle built around 1970 being upgraded to electric using Tesla motors and a custom battery. So is the VW suddenly a new 2025 just because of the upgrade? deLorean cars are still being built today with a mix of old stock and new components, again is it 2025 or 1981 (or there about) car (legally it is the 1980s date)?

 

[tytalan]

You can build the lower TL in higher TL ports. The quality should be higher as they have improved alloys for example if for no other reason than quality control has them be more uniform between batches. A Model T engine built today would be of better quality because of the greater precision in the manufacture of components, all components would be closer to the targets originally set with lesser variance.

But it itself would not be at a hight TL and wouldn’t need higher TL parts.

 

[MasterGwydion]

My players are chronic wanderers. The second an adventure is over, they want to move on.

I am the type of GM who likes to plan adventures and locations in advance. Having a ship that can jump in any direction makes that a little hard.

I have negotiated with my players so they let me know where they want to go at the end of each session so I can plan and develop the next locations.

However, sometimes it is nice to use a location for more than just one encounter. When I say I force my players to find a shipyard, I let them know several jumps in advance. They get to choose the destination. They negotiate with the shipyard and they know they will be in one place for two or three sessions.

There are many GM fiats that I could use to keep them in place. Ship maintenance seems to me the least coercive way.

- Kerry

I can understand this. Mostly I run sandbox campaigns, so in the pregame discussions with My players, they choose an area to stay inside of, usually a subsector or 4. We discuss what kind of campaign they want to have, group goals, individual goals and storylines they would like to see included somehow, etc. Depending on how much freetime I have and if they have chosen an area I have detailed before, it usually takes Me about a week of prep time to have some kind of how to get them moving along the path they want. I had a group of players hand Me their shipping schedule for a year in advance at the first session. They kept their schedule (more or less) and had adventures along the way. Most of the game was about figuring out how to accomplish their goals and setting out to accomplish them. Good campaign. Lasted about 2 years before life got in the way.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I've seen video of a VW Beetle built around 1970 being upgraded to electric using Tesla motors and a custom battery. So is the VW suddenly a new 2025 just because of the upgrade? deLorean cars are still being built today with a mix of old stock and new components, again is it 2025 or 1981 (or there about) car (legally it is the 1980s date)?

I don't know about the conversation that you are having with him because I have him blocked, but if you go and register the car with the government, that freshly constructed DeLorean with all original 1981 parts and matching serial numbers, would be registered as a 1981 DeLorean. If you made all new parts in 2025, then it would be a 2025 Replica of a 1981 DeLorean. Governments, go fig!

 

[tytalan]

I've seen video of a VW Beetle built around 1970 being upgraded to electric using Tesla motors and a custom battery. So is the VW suddenly a new 2025 just because of the upgrade? deLorean cars are still being built today with a mix of old stock and new components, again is it 2025 or 1981 (or there about) car (legally it is the 1980s date)?

The bug example since the engine is the heart of the car maybe at least the engine would be. As for the delorean I don’t see why it’s TL would be higher just because the machines building it are do you have to get new parts to repair your delorean or can you use old part even though it was built today? I’m pretty sure the answer is that you don’t need the new parts. which is my point just because a ship is being built at a TL 15 ship yard doesn’t mean it’s built with TL 15 parts, the parts might be better made but they are still the same parts and could be replaced with regular parts built for the actual TL of the ship.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

If you built an assembly line designed to build steam engines it would be cheaper to build them at TL 5 standards using TL 8 systems.

But we don't, do we? That would be uneconomical.

As for 1 offs all ships are one offs their slight variations in all ships of the same class so that’s a wash.

But we use standard components, such as engines, electronics, and materials. Try finding tube electronics for your 75-year old ship...

We build diesel engines because they have a better mass to power ratio not because they are easier to manufacture, they are not.

They are more economical to run. We like money, so we only build economical engines in large quantities. One-offs are much more expensive.

It no more difficult to build a factory that builds steam engines than it is to build one that builds diesel engines.

Perhaps, but we don't, do we?


If we did build new one-off steam engine, we would use modern materials with much better metallurgy, and e.g. modern welding techniques, and it would be irreplaceable in a low tech environment.

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

There are 1980s computers that have modern versions which have 2020s tech BUT still for example can use the 1970s-1980s tape drives, floppies, printers and software. Some are even built to install in the old cases.

So your TL 12 manufactured computers and sensors can be installed in the TL 9 ship without changing the TL of the ship at all.

 

[MasterGwydion]

There are 1980s computers that have modern versions which have 2020s tech BUT still for example can use the 1970s-1980s tape drives, floppies, printers and software. Some are even built to install in the old cases.

So your TL 12 manufactured computers and sensors can be installed in the TL 9 ship without changing the TL of the ship at all.

You are talking a difference of 3 TLs. Does your Android Phone interface with early 1900s technology?

 

[tytalan]

But we don't, do we? That would be uneconomical

That actually depends on the situation and purpose

But we use standard components, such as engines, electronics, and materials. Try finding tube electronics for your 75-year old ship...

Maybe you should look at this vacuum tubes are still quite common today

Are Vacuum Tubes Still Made? - Fuzz Audio

In the digital era, it might come as a surprise to many that vacuum tubes are not only still made, but also actively used across the globe!

fuzzaudio.com

They are more economical to run. We like money, so we only build economical engines in large quantities. One-offs are much more expensive.

A freetrader spending time far away from TL 15 Starports still needs maintenance and repairs in this case it is far more economical to build they to the lower TL than to build them at TL 15 and have them sit for months at a time waiting for repair parts.

Perhaps, but we don't, do we?

Actually for many things we do. Just because something it less advanced doesn’t mean the more advanced version is more economical in fact it’s often the exact opposite. Also often none economical forces will direct how and what we produce. New more advanced is not necessarily better look at electric cars there’s a big push to convert to them but they are far less economical and to use in majority would require a huge expenditure to improve the infrastructure (I’ll keep out of the lower carbon footprint argument)

 

[mavikfelna]

Ok, the way I handle this, and every group I've played with does it similarly, is the TL of the yard the ship is built in is the base TL of the ship. So build in a TL 12 yard, the ship is TL 12. But components of higher TL can be installed, they just cost more, both initially and in maintenance, than parts of the "correct" TL because they must be shipped in and integrated. Typically it's been 2x cost per TL difference, but you could just use the prototype rules and do x10/x100 and have them produced locally.
If you refit in a new higher tech level system, then you pay the higher cost, even if the refit happens at a higher TL yard, it costs to integrate the system more than the parts cost. And maintenance increases accordingly.
We also allow installing larger engines and equipment as long as you are removing logically adjacent space or pay a premium to rearrange systems on the ship.

 

[Condottiere]

Compatibility, and universal standards.

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

You are talking a difference of 3 TLs. Does your Android Phone interface with early 1900s technology?

Are you saying that we couldn't build one that could plug into a 1900s phone system using current TL components? I'd say you were wrong. The fact that an unmodified off the shelf unit can't is irrelevant.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Maybe you should look at this vacuum tubes are still quite common today

Are Vacuum Tubes Still Made? - Fuzz Audio

In the digital era, it might come as a surprise to many that vacuum tubes are not only still made, but also actively used across the globe!

fuzzaudio.com

Valve audio? Quite common? It's a small niche of a small niche...

Last I heard (quite a while ago) they mainly used old soviet stock of valves, as old western stock was mostly depleted.

How many transistor amps are built compared to how many tube amps?
How much do they cost?

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

Ok, the way I handle this, and every group I've played with does it similarly, is the TL of the yard the ship is built in is the base TL of the ship. So build in a TL 12 yard, the ship is TL 12.

Mine is the higher TL shipyards can build lower TL ships quicker and have them be more reliable as quality control is higher. So a Free Trader can be built with all TL 9 components made at a TL 13 shipyard and it is still TL 9.

 

[tytalan]

Valve audio? Quite common? It's a small niche of a small niche...

Last I heard (quite a while ago) they mainly used old soviet stock of valves, as old western stock was mostly depleted.

How many transistor amps are built compared to how many tube amps?
How much do they cost?

Audio is but one industry there are many others that still use Vacuum Tubes including modern medical equipment in fact they are used in MIRs, CT X-Rays. The military uses them quite a bit since they are resistant to EMPs. Every ham radio has them. They handle High voltage better than just about anything else. They are even used in laser cutters

Are Vacuum Tubes Still Used (& What Are They Used for)?

Are vacuum tubes still used in this day & age, & if so, what are vacuum tubes used for? We explain 12 vacuum tube uses (& yes, vacuum tubes are still made)

pentalabs.com

 

[Sageryne]

I would say no. Negative modifiers are explicit if they apply. There are no negative modifiers.

Or it means that they are simply better at detecting the increased emissions of a lower TL ship. It cannot be the sensors are better as what degrades them when they meet the next ship that is only 1 TL lower.

If it has TL15 sensors it is no longer a TL12 ship. So yes you get +3. You might prefer to tie it to the TL of each ships sensor package rather than the whole ship (assuming the target ship is using it's own sensors to tune down its sensor signature). It depends what you think you are detecting. A low TL power plant might have higher emissions than a high TL one.

It is a bit gamey for simplicity. Consider the way smart rounds are able to home in on lower tech equipment. CRB rules a written mean they are better at homing in on jack armour than higher TL armour e.g. cloth. You would think that Reflec would be easier to find with a smart round.

Sometimes it is best not to think about it too much.

Agreed, the negative DM is built into the stealth options.

To bring this all back around to the original question, I posted this position back to the person on Reddit. They pointed me to this High Guard (Update 2022) page 14:



My first point, this rule should have also been repeated on page 77.

If you are in a low TL ship and you get hunted by a high TL stealth ship, you are hooped.

In the example he gave, the TL-10 freighter, trying to lock on to a TL15 Harrier attacking it would be at DM -11 (-5 for TL difference and -6 for Advanced Stealth) to lock on.

That makes stealth ships even more powerful than I thought they were.

- Kerry