Question on Sensor effectiveness

[Sageryne]

Not to mention, a TL10 powerplant, built in one sector, may be different in subtle but important ways than a reactor built in another sector by a completely different company.

Yes, the Third Imperium has standardized designs built across the empire, but what about if your power plant fails when you are in Hiver space, or K'Kree space, or Aslan space? Why would the Zhodani allow their systems to be compatible with their enemy, the Third Imperium? And, in the case of the Vargr, why would a system built on one planet look anything like one built on another?

Today, we live in a globalized economy where standardization is taken for granted. 200 years ago, everything was custom built. No two steam engines had interchangeable parts. Every country used a different rail gauge. Now, take that variety and multiply it by tens of thousands of systems spread across multiple species that evolved on different planets with different scientific paths. Hell, just here on Earth, you have to carry a set of plug adaptors when you travel because we don't have one common electrical plug in for our SINGLE planet.

I think adapting a new, non-standard system to work on your ship would be hard.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Not to mention, a TL10 powerplant, built in one sector, may be different in subtle but important ways than a reactor built in another sector by a completely different company.

Yes, the Third Imperium has standardized designs built across the empire, but what about if your power plant fails when you are in Hiver space, or K'Kree space, or Aslan space? Why would the Zhodani allow their systems to be compatible with their enemy, the Third Imperium? And, in the case of the Vargr, why would a system built on one planet look anything like one built on another?

Today, we live in a globalized economy where standardization is taken for granted. 200 years ago, everything was custom built. No two steam engines had interchangeable parts. Every country used a different rail gauge. Now, take that variety and multiply it by tens of thousands of systems spread across multiple species that evolved on different planets with different scientific paths. Hell, just here on Earth, you have to carry a set of plug adaptors when you travel because we don't have one common electrical plug in for our SINGLE planet.

I think adapting a new, non-standard system to work on your ship would be hard.

I agree, but there is no way to implement that that isn't either arbitrary by the Referee or too complicated to include in the rules

 

[tytalan]

You don't even have to state it, it is a TL-15 ship whether you like it or not.

And that might have downstream consequences, e.g. for repairs.

Actually you can down tech level there is no rule that says you can’t. A real world example would be the original VW bug it’s a WW1 car that was still being build in countries around the world using the say tech level parts well into the 70s. Just because your manufacturing TL goes up doesn’t mean you have to build more complex machinery in fact it often means it’s cheaper to build the less complex machinery.

 

[swordtart]

That is the point I'm trying to make. The ship should be the TL it was when it was made. Blowing your TL 12 power plant and replacing it with a TL 8 still leaves your ship as TL 12. Just as adding TL 12 sensors you scavenged to your TL 9 ship leaves it TL 9 except for that one component. The upgraded (or downgraded) COMPONENT has its own TL from then on.

On that basis Ship TL is a bit meaningless as for any ship I need to determine the TL of the starport where its keel was laid as the TL of any component fitted is irrelevant. So we have a key game impact (how effective your sensors are) that is unrelated to the price you pay for the ship and is instead entirely an accident of geography.

I would prefer it to be pegged to some equipment that actual had a price delta based on TL or you are getting additional capability at no cost.

Which piece of equipment would depend on the situation. If you were only able to detect M-Drive emissions (either because of range or specific sensor types) then it would be the TL of the M-Drive that is the determining factor.

 

[Sageryne]

I agree, but there is no way to implement that that isn't either arbitrary by the Referee or too complicated to include in the rules

Agreed. For basic playability, this needs to be abstracted. However, as a GM, I wouldn't make this too easy for the PCs.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Actually you can down tech level there is no rule that says you can’t.

TL of the ship is the TL of the shipyard. It is not selectable.

HG'22, p9:
TECH LEVEL
Before you start building your ship, decide on the Tech Level of the shipyard that will construct it. This is the maximum Tech Level available for any given component you add and also serves as the overall Tech Level of the ship itself.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

What happens when you replace your TL12 power plant with a TL15 power plant? How about that old standby of the computer upgrade? Installing higher TL weapons on your hardpoints...

The basic TL of the ship doesn't change, it just has a few upgraded components.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Yes, the Third Imperium has standardized designs built across the empire, but what about if your power plant fails when you are in Hiver space, or K'Kree space, or Aslan space?

That is called an Adventure...

 

[Sageryne]

In my last campaign, my players started in the Third Imperium but most of the campaign was set in the Hinterworlds Sector. There are only three TL14 systems in the sector, and no TL15 systems.

It seems to me, given the limitation that the overall tech level of the ship is set by the original tech level of the shipyard that built it, it would be wise for those intending to travel outside "civilized" territories to have their ships built at as low a tech level shipyard as they can (say a TL 11 shipyard if your ship is jump-2) to give yourself the best chance of finding a shipyard "in the wilderness" that can do maintenance or repairs.

- Kerry

 

[AnotherDilbert]

It seems to me, given the limitation that the overall tech level of the ship is set by the original tech level of the shipyard that built it, it would be wise for those intending to travel outside "civilized" territories to have their ships built at as low a tech level shipyard as they can (say a TL 11 shipyard if your ship is jump-2) to give yourself the best chance of finding a shipyard "in the wilderness" that can do maintenance or repairs.

Agreed, choose the shipyard with care.

 

[tytalan]

TL of the ship is the TL of the shipyard. It is not selectable.

Which doesn’t make sense because that means you will have for example scout couriers designed at TL 12 that are TL 13,14,15 each requiring different TL Starports to maintain the ship especially when off the main routes where TL 15 parts are not available. That or ships are only built in ship yards of their TL which would mean you need 5 different classes of Free Traders one for each TL the ship is built on. Plus it’s easier to build lower TL thing with higher TL manufacturing without advancing the TL of what your building

 

[MasterGwydion]

On that basis Ship TL is a bit meaningless as for any ship I need to determine the TL of the starport where its keel was laid as the TL of any component fitted is irrelevant. So we have a key game impact (how effective your sensors are) that is unrelated to the price you pay for the ship and is instead entirely an accident of geography.

Oh the difficulty! *faints in dramatic fashion* To have to determine a ship's TL! The horror!

I would prefer it to be pegged to some equipment that actual had a price delta based on TL or you are getting additional capability at no cost.

Which piece of equipment would depend on the situation. If you were only able to detect M-Drive emissions (either because of range or specific sensor types) then it would be the TL of the M-Drive that is the determining factor.

I paid about the same for My computer that I am typing to you on as I did for a computer 20 years ago. In your mind, both computers should be equally capable? What reality are you basing that on? The reality is that higher tech is usually a higher advantage at the same or lower cost, ignoring inflation. You just don't like it because that reality feels like cheating to you. Here is a hint. The only winning in RPGs is having fun. So, what would feel like cheating in real life is not cheating when building or playing in a game world.

 

[MasterGwydion]

In my last campaign, my players started in the Third Imperium but most of the campaign was set in the Hinterworlds Sector. There are only three TL14 systems in the sector, and no TL15 systems.

It seems to me, given the limitation that the overall tech level of the ship is set by the original tech level of the shipyard that built it, it would be wise for those intending to travel outside "civilized" territories to have their ships built at as low a tech level shipyard as they can (say a TL 11 shipyard if your ship is jump-2) to give yourself the best chance of finding a shipyard "in the wilderness" that can do maintenance or repairs.

- Kerry

Except, per the SOM, you no longer need shipyards to do your maintenance, so it is way less of an issue now than in previous editions.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Which doesn’t make sense because that means you will have for example scout couriers designed at TL 12 that are TL 13,14,15 each requiring different TL Starports to maintain the ship especially when off the main routes where TL 15 parts are not available.

Yet that is the rule...

Don't build Scouts at TL-15 military yards, build them at smaller TL-12 yard to keep them going.

Plus it’s easier to build lower TL thing with higher TL manufacturing without advancing the TL of what your building

Would it be easier to build a steam engine at TL-5 or TL-8?
Now at TL-8 we have no factories building standard steam engines, so steam engines become expensive one-offs. A TL-8 diesel engine on the other hand can be supplied quickly and cheaply.

Today we build TL-8 ships, not ironclads or wooden sailships...

 

[Sageryne]

It seems to me, given the limitation that the overall tech level of the ship is set by the original tech level of the shipyard that built it, it would be wise for those intending to travel outside "civilized" territories to have their ships built at as low a tech level shipyard as they can (say a TL 11 shipyard if your ship is jump-2) to give yourself the best chance of finding a shipyard "in the wilderness" that can do maintenance or repairs.

Agreed, choose the shipyard with care.

To me, this is the most realistic and reasonable justification why ships in the Third Imperium aren't all TL15. TL15 shipyards aren't universally available. Higher TL shipyards can maintain lower TL ships, but lower TL shipyards may not be able to fix your higher TL ship (depending on the item and availability of imported parts). By deliberately flying as low a TL ship as satisfies your purpose, you maximize the number of shipyards that can maintain and repair your ship.

I like that idea a lot.

 

[Sageryne]

Except, per the SOM, you no longer need shipyards to do your maintenance, so it is way less of an issue now than in previous editions.

As Elizabeth Swan was known to say, "Hang the rules. They're more like guidelines anyway." My table, my rules. I still make my players use a shipyard. It is a helpful narrative plot point to force them to find a shipyard at least once a year, and to tie up their ship and force them to stay in one place for a while.

 

[MasterGwydion]

To me, this is the most realistic and reasonable justification why ships in the Third Imperium aren't all TL15. TL15 shipyards aren't universally available. Higher TL shipyards can maintain lower TL ships, but lower TL shipyards may not be able to fix your higher TL ship (depending on the item and availability of imported parts). By deliberately flying as low a TL ship as satisfies your purpose, you maximize the number of shipyards that can maintain and repair your ship.

I like that idea a lot.

Except that you can maintain your ship without a shipyard.

 

[MasterGwydion]

As Elizabeth Swan was known to say, "Hang the rules. They're more like guidelines anyway." My table, my rules. I still make my players use a shipyard. It is a helpful narrative plot point to force them to find a shipyard at least once a year, and to tie up their ship and force them to stay in one place for a while.

If I have to force My players, I am in the wrong job. If they want an upgrade for their ship, they need a shipyard (or workshop if it is a minor component) of equal or higher TL than their ship because they have to get the parts and refits are hard to do in space.

 

[Condottiere]

Part of this was resolved at the very beginning, with alphabet engineering.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

By deliberately flying as low a TL ship as satisfies your purpose, you maximize the number of shipyards that can maintain and repair your ship.

Quite, it has been that way since CT...