Question - Dodge

[Supplement Four]

So, if I'm reading this correctly, in order to dodge, you've got to have at least one open (or filled with a friendly) five foot square touching your square--but you can't actually use and move into that square unless you have a DEX 13+ and use the Dance Aside maneuver.

That's how you guys read it?

If you've got DEX 12-, then why do you need an open square if you'll never move into it?

Need a flashlight to enlighten me. :wink:

 

[Clovenhoof]

Your interpretation is correct.

Basically, you need the extra square just as a token space, to indicate that you have some space left to breathe. It's a bit abstract, owed to the rather rough 5' resolution.
The Dance Aside maneuver however reverses this abstraction and takes it literally. I suppose it was added as an afterthought.

Just another case of two rules giving contradictory results, just like AoOs and Improved Mobility.

 

[Nyarlathotep5150]

Ditto, to the above post.
The need for an open space is an abstraction, basically as an easy way to adjudicate when a Character is too "boxed in" to have effective mobility to dodge.
If there where opponents on all sides (or walls blocking you in), you wouldn't have enough room to avoid attacks (just imagine trying to dodge a punch, while standing in a doorway, with someone else right behind you).
The dance aside maneuver, in my opinion, is to show that your dex is high enough (and in reality, most PC's will have Dex 13+) to grant you superior mobility. Rather than just swerving your upperbody momentarily into the open square, You can now just jump into that square entirely.
This abstraction isn't without logical problems, such as the idea that the initial 5 foot space taken up by a PC, doesn't include room to dodge (in reality, I don't take up 5 square feet while fighting, nor do I lose mobility if someone "crowds in" closer than 3-5 feet). Or that, in a situation where one only had 1 open square to dodge, his enemies would know where he was going to dodge to, and account for it.
But the former is just one of the basic assumptions that D20 is based on, so its easier to roll with it than to change it (if its not broke, why fix it). The second is pretty minor, so its easier for me to suspend disbelief than try to "fix it" in my games.

 

[Supplement Four]

The need for an open space is an abstraction, basically as an easy way to adjudicate when a Character is too "boxed in" to have effective mobility to dodge.

That makes sense. I guess I won't change it. It's a visual cue to figure when a character can Dodge and when he can't. I'll go for that.

 

[Supplement Four]

Hold on a minute! MORE CONFUSION!!

See pg. 189 of the 2E rulebook? There is says that a character is always able to move at least a 5' step if he takes no other movement in the round. And, this 5' step doesn't provoke an AoO as long as any other action the character takes doesn't provoke an AoO.

So...bacially...



There is no DEX requirement to move 5' while in melee, if you move on YOUR Initiative.

If you move on your opponent's Initiatiave, when you are Dodging his blow, you can move 5' using the Dance Aside maneuver, which requires you to have a 13+ DEX.

On your initiative = no requirement.

On your enemy's initiative = DEX 13+.

Interesting.

 

[Spectator]

Dance Aside??????????


I guess I'm still stuck in the 1st edition blues (thank goodness).

 

[Nyarlathotep5150]

Hold on a minute! MORE CONFUSION!!

See pg. 189 of the 2E rulebook? There is says that a character is always able to move at least a 5' step if he takes no other movement in the round. And, this 5' step doesn't provoke an AoO as long as any other action the character takes doesn't provoke an AoO.

So...bacially...



There is no DEX requirement to move 5' while in melee, if you move on YOUR Initiative.

If you move on your opponent's Initiatiave, when you are Dodging his blow, you can move 5' using the Dance Aside maneuver, which requires you to have a 13+ DEX.

On your initiative = no requirement.

On your enemy's initiative = DEX 13+.

Thats technically what it says. But something to keep in mind there is that "5 foot step", is the term they use in the game for moving 1 square without provoking AoO's.
So, While Dance Aside says you can take a 5 foot step, It doesn't say that counts as your 5 foot step you can take on your turn.
I would probably rule that, you can always use Dance aside, even if you took your standard 5 foot step on your turn.
But an argument could be made (and precedents sited) for going either way, so thats really more of a GM judgment call.

 

[Supplement Four]

I would probably rule that, you can always use Dance aside, even if you took your standard 5 foot step on your turn.
But an argument could be made (and precedents sited) for going either way, so thats really more of a GM judgment call.

Yeah, I'd point to the book and argue the other way. The main part of my arguement would be that a 5' step is only allowed if no other movement is taken. If you move early in the round--say, to enter melee--you cannot take a 5' step that round.

The reverse is true, too. If you take a 5' step, then you cannot then do any other type of move that round.

Given that, I'd say that the Dance Aside counts as the 5' step--you only get one type of movement per round.

Upon looking closer at the rule, too, I don't think it was added as an after thought. I think it was added to allow the 5' step to happen on your opponents turn when you are dodging. Some 2E play tester probably said, "Hey, if I can move 5' on my initiative, then why can't I move when I'm dodging? That makes sense, doesn't it."

And, it does.

So, they put a limit on it. You need a DEX 13+ to combine your 5' step with a dodge.

Also note that, if you go by the movement rules in the book, the Dance Aside maneuver could only be used once per round, regardless of how many attacks that are dodged. If you allow the Dance Aside every time the character dodges, he'll could potentially move way across the tactical board, inching his way in 5' increments.

 

[Clovenhoof]

Upon looking closer at the rule, too, I don't think it was added as an after thought. I think it was added to allow the 5' step to happen on your opponents turn when you are dodging.

Well, the basic Dodge mechanism has been the same in 1st Ed, while Dance Aside only appears in 2E.

The 5' Step limitation is there to avoid people moving 15 feet up to an opponent, attack, then declare a 5' step to avoid AoO and then move on another 10' of their regular allowance. And by the way, 5' Step is nerfed in Conan compared to D20 - per SRD, a 5' Step never provokes an AoO even if you perform other actions that do (in particular, making a ranged attack).

 

[Nyarlathotep5150]

S4. The thing to remember is that the start of a round for your character is his turn. So even by your rule, he'd be able to use Dance aside and then still take a 5 foot step on his turn (but then he wouldn't be able to use dance aside later that round). Also, it says that he is allowed on his turn to take a 5 foot step if hes taken no other movement that round. It does not say that that limit applies to 5 foot steps given by other sources, just the one you always get (this rule is added in for tactical movement purposes, In D&D 3.0 5 foot step was a move action, but they changed it to the current rule in 3.5 to allow 5 foot steps, while using a full attack action).
Also, remember that the trigger for Dance Aside isn't just someone missing you. They have to miss by more than half your dodge score. People aren't going to be using this maneuver every turn. For a 1st level character to get to use this power, the opponent would have to roll roughly a 7 on his attack after bonuses. I don't find it terribly overpowering to let them have the step for the few times it comes up. But having them hold 5 foot steps to use in the incredily small chance that that power triggers is likely to get them killed.

 

[Vambelte]

S4 maybe you should avoid combat manouvers on the first few sessions, it might slow the game down a lot...

I just don't use them because my players aren't hardcore gamers, and they usually find the normal combat rules a bit complicated to beginh with...

 

[Clovenhoof]

Pro Tip: when I first ran a Conan game for total newbs, I didn't require them to learn all the rules from the beginning. In combat, they simply told me what they wanted to do, and I translated it on the fly into game terms. That way, in the first few combats we had sand thrown into opponent's faces, hamstrung knees, nets thrown, riders dragged off their horse, all cool stuff like that.
My general guidelines as a GM were "Say Yes", don't choke cool ideas, and encourage them to try awesome stunts. Part of the latter is not to go down hard on them if their maneuver roll is not so great, but at least award them partial success where at all possible.

 

[Supplement Four]

S4 maybe you should avoid combat manouvers on the first few sessions, it might slow the game down a lot...

Actually, I'm running sessions that help my players learn the game the first three or four times we meet.

The first sessions is about skills (and we run a race).

The second session I'm thinking of focusing on the attack throw and combat maneuvers (not armor or defense).

We'll eventually get up to learning the entire game rules. If you look at the thread on my game, I'm not doing this "out of game", with the players looking around the table creating characters.

I've turned learning the game into part of the story (as the PCs are quite young and will age 3 years before we start the game proper).

I just don't use them because my players aren't hardcore gamers, and they usually find the normal combat rules a bit complicated to beginh with...

The Combat Maneuvers seemed like a lot to chew the first time I looked at them, but upon closer inspect, I realized three things: First, some of the maneuvers are acutally rules for the game, like Aid Another. Second, some of them are standard combat options, like Charge. And, third, some are "special rules", like the Dance Aside, but if you just focus on what the characters can do at 1st level, it cuts out most of them.

So, we learn those, and just keep learning new ones as the characters level up.

Another thing I like about the combat maneuvers is that it makes the Conan RPG quite a simulationist game, unlike earlier D&D editions.

For example, if two enemies flank a PC, then they get the +2 flanking bonus. In older D&D games, the PC wouldn't move, and the flank bonus would be applied for many rounds.

Now, with the 5' step and the Dance Aside maneuver, the combat round becomes much more realistic as the combatants float around the battlemat, moving like real combatants in a sword fight. The PC will use his 5' step, or take advantage of this Dance Aside, in order to keep the two enemies from flanking him as the combat wears on.

 

[Supplement Four]

So even by your rule, he'd be able to use Dance aside and then still take a 5 foot step on his turn (but then he wouldn't be able to use dance aside later that round).

No, you didn't read me correctly. If a character makes a 5' step in a round, then he can no longer move in a round, including the Dance Aside maneuver. If a character uses the Dance Aside, the, as per the rules, a 5' step is not allowed--no other movement is allowed.

Thus, it's a choice. Take the 5' step on your initiative. Or, use the Dance Aside and basically take the 5' step with your dodge, provided you have DEX 13+.

They have to miss by more than half your dodge score.

Yep.

People aren't going to be using this maneuver every turn.

And, they may elect not to use it even if they can use it.

I don't find it terribly overpowering to let them have the step for the few times it comes up.

I dunno about that. If fighting 3 Picts, there's a possibility of moving 15 feet, doing it your way. That's quite a distance.

Plus, the Dance Aside can be a powerful tool--especially if you move yourself out of a flanking maneuver by your three enemies. And, moving away from an enemy forces him to move to you to attack--you rob him of other movement options.

If you can perform the Dance Aside in such a way that you move 10' away from an attacker, then he's got to use normal movement to approach and attack you. This robs him of his dual attacks, if he's swinging two weapons (which must be a full attack).

So, yeah, the Dance Aside can be quite a tactical gem under the right circumstances.

 

[Nyarlathotep5150]

No, you didn't read me correctly. If a character makes a 5' step in a round, then he can no longer move in a round, including the Dance Aside maneuver. If a character uses the Dance Aside, the, as per the rules, a 5' step is not allowed--no other movement is allowed.

Thus, it's a choice. Take the 5' step on your initiative. Or, use the Dance Aside and basically take the 5' step with your dodge, provided you have DEX 13+.

No. I read you right, but in your rule, You would have to hold your 5 foot step for the off chance (a roughly 10% chance) that the power triggers later during the turn. However, the Dance Aside maneuver can never rob you of your 5 foot step on your turn (as the round starts on your turn). In this rule all you are doing in effect, is making Dance Aside useless. The Players will never plan ahead for using Dance Aside (and even if they wanted to, it would be too complicated to do so), and the only time it will come up is 10% of the times that they didn't have anywhere the wanted to move on their turn (and in reality less then that, because a power that has that small and limited an effect tends to get forgotten in the 1 in a million time that you could use it).

I dunno about that. If fighting 3 Picts, there's a possibility of moving 15 feet, doing it your way. That's quite a distance.

Plus, the Dance Aside can be a powerful tool--especially if you move yourself out of a flanking maneuver by your three enemies. And, moving away from an enemy forces him to move to you to attack--you rob him of other movement options.

If you can perform the Dance Aside in such a way that you move 10' away from an attacker, then he's got to use normal movement to approach and attack you. This robs him of his dual attacks, if he's swinging two weapons (which must be a full attack).

So, yeah, the Dance Aside can be quite a tactical gem under the right circumstances.

A circumstance that has roughly a 3% chance of paying off (assuming a first level game, a character will have roughly a 14-15 Dodge on average. The Picts would ALL have to roll a 7 AFTER all modifiers. The picts will have about a +5 to hit, so that means all 3 picts would have to roll 2 or less). which brings around 2 points.
1) ANY power in the game could be insanely effective 3% of the time.
2) If that perfect storm of insane odds where to come about. Thats as close to divine intervention as a gamer can get, and you should let them have it.

Multiple 5' steps in a round have never overbalanced any of my games (As long as they have Abilities to give them the extras), not in Conan, not in D&D, Not in any of my other D20 games.
If someone had a feat that gave them a 5' step in a certain circumstance I wouldn't make them choose between the feat and their normal 5'' step (unless the feat specifically said it counted as such, and most of them that do count that way, do specify). and that's really all a Combat Maneuver is.

The 5' step is a way of saying that you move without dropping your guard. Its a useful addition to combat, and a needed way to balance Attacks of Opportunity.
but in reality, Combat movement ends up boiling down to.
1) PC's close distance with their enemies.
2) From there all parties stand stationary, trading D20 rolls to hit eachother, only moving to use their 5' step to break a flank or (very) slowly drag their opponent toward their allies.
All the couple extra 5' steps do, is add a little more life to the battlefield.

 

[Supplement Four]

In this rule all you are doing in effect, is making Dance Aside useless.

The reason I think the Dance Aside and the five foot step should be used mutually exclusively is that, all throughout the book, when the 5' step is used, it is the only movement allowed. Nowhere is a character allowed to take a 5' step and take some other type of movement in the same round (although he can take a non-move "Move Action", such as readying a shield).

Therefore it seems pretty clear to me that, if a Dance Aside is used before a character's inititive, then the 5' step is not allowed.

Logically, why shouldn't the reverse be true? If a 5' step is taken, then it pre-empts the use of the Dance Aside, should the opportunity to Dance Aside arise.





EDIT: Although, if the Dance Aside were allowed in the same round as the 5' Step, it would provide some interesting dynamics on the battlefield. It could represent a moment in the fight where fancy footwork provides an advantage. With the Dance Aside and the 5' step, together, the character could move 10 feet. This becomes a powerful tool in that you've stolen any ability of the enemy to use a Full Round Action. If he's using two weapons, he's reduced to only one attack.

And, since the PCs can't control with the Dance Aside appears--you're right: It's worth considering using it in additon to the 5' step.

 

[Supplement Four]

Ah...I just found something that makes my interpretation of Dance Aside wrong. I looked at the Action type. It's an Immediate Action--a type of free action.

Given that, I'd agree that it can be taken in the same round as a character making a 5' step.

Note that this interpretation of the rule sure makes the Dance Aside powerful when it comes up. Let's say two enemies have the PC flanked. The initiative order is Enemy 1, the PC, and Enemy 2.

Enemy 1 attacks, and the PC is able to use the Dance Aside. Next, on the PC's turn, he uses is 5' step to increase distance to 10' away from either enemy.

What this does is rob Enemy 2 of any Full Attack options, like wielding two weapons, because he's got to use his normal move to get adjacent to his target. Plus, the second enemy doesn't get his flanking bonus any longer.

At the start of the second round, Enemy 1 is 10' away (Enemy 2 is probably in base-to-base contact), with the same problems Enemy 2 had the previous round.

Yeah, when it comes up, Dance Aside isn't a bad deal at all.

 

[Vambelte]

The Combat Maneuvers seemed like a lot to chew the first time I looked at them, but upon closer inspect, I realized three things: First, some of the maneuvers are acutally rules for the game, like Aid Another. Second, some of them are standard combat options, like Charge. And, third, some are "special rules", like the Dance Aside, but if you just focus on what the characters can do at 1st level, it cuts out most of them.

When I say Combat Maneuvers I'm talking about the "special rules", like Dance Aside, To the Hilt, etc. Mecanics like charge and trip are part of the game we can't, or shouldn't, avoid.

 

[Supplement Four]

When I say Combat Maneuvers I'm talking about the "special rules", like Dance Aside, To the Hilt, etc. Mecanics like charge and trip are part of the game we can't, or shouldn't, avoid.

I'm actually going to be teaching the Combat Maneuvers next game session (session II), and this acutally comes before I teach them how to parry and dodge and attack. :wink: