Psionics: Real or reasonable ?

captainjack23 said:
First is that the existing research seems to indicate that internal communication language of the brain is essentially encrypted uniquely for each brain, and at different timepoints in the same brain -which make decryption a problem greater than cracking NSA super level mega prime number encryption - and which may never be amenable to calculation. So, even getting a means to 'image' a brains thought's may never produce useful information.

True, but...

While each of our brains, and the OS it runs may be unique, for humans, at least, they are all derived from the same Open Source code, if you will. I don't see it so much as an issue of encryoption, but more of internal communications protocol - and cracking a protocol is a bit different than cracking a true encryption because you can test specific inputs and look at the results.

Like computers, each of our brains has specific "ports" - where a computer may have a serial, parallel or USB port, our brain has ports for visual, audio, muscle control, etc. Everyone's ears may use a different resolution, and a different "protocol" to transmit that information back to the brain, and the "port" may be located in a slightly different position in the brain, we do know what type of information we're looking for - audio. If you know the audio input going into a brain, then cracking how the brain breaks that down into internal information becomes a lot easier.

I do agree it's a tough job - but in the case of psi, a brain "wired" as a psi receptor may just have the tools needed to hack the "protocols" - particularly if they're based on the same "OS" - IE, human. I'm of the opinion that empathy would be easier than telepathy, because the protocols of emotions are much simpler that of telepathy. For that matter, a form of clairaudience/clairavoyance where you tap into someone else's ears and/or eyes would be simpler than telepathy. Telepathy between two trained Psion's shouldn't be that hard at all - as long as each were trained to "transmit" the same protocol/language.

However, while humans may have originated with the same "source code", large deviations are likely to be caused by different cultures. A Brit should have an easier time "reading" a Brit than an American, but an American would be easier than reading an Iraqi, and anyone on Earth would be easier than reading a Vilani or Zhodani. Since Vargr are also from Earth, they would be easier than an Aslan, Hiver or Kkree, but still far more difficult than a human.

To put all that in game terms, Telepathy should be automtatic with other psions, and get more difficult as the subject you're attempting to mind read gets further away in cultural and/or biological terms. Frankly, I don't think humans should be able to read Aslan, Hiver, Kkree or any other alien minds at all and vice versa.

teleportation and tk seem pretty well defined (in black box terms).
I'm actually not all that happy with the definition of teleportation in Traveller. I understand the whole conservation of momentum thing being there, but it doesn't seem to tie well with other things for me.

FREX, the only way psionic teleportation makes sense to me is that it's a form of internal j-drive - that is, when the psion activates it, a little "bubble" forms around their person, and they "jump" though an unknown dimension to another location.

But if that's the case, shouldn't psionic teleportation be more consistent with the way j-drive works? In which case, it should barely be useful at all - a week to jump, doesn't operate well within a gravity well, etc. Either that, or J-drive needs some tweaking to bring the two closer together.

I'm not annoyed enough to bother going through and houseruling anything about it - frankly, I deal with Psionics by really playing up the OTUs 3d Imperium's distaste for Psionics, making it risky to obtain and use for PCs. But I do feel it would have been nice if someone had considered that in the design stages of the rules, and made the two things a bit more consistent.
 
EDG said:
I'm talking more about modern stories/examples. It may be pseudoscience, but there have been plenty of modern investigations into what are basically considered "paranormal phenomena". I'm extrapolating the more modern interpretations of those phenomena to a scifi setting, rather than the more "mystical" interpretations.

Bilocation studies, Spontanious human combustion, Spontanious combustion, engineering anomalies related to temp and probability, Poltergeists as uncontrolled TK. I know the stuff. I just don't believe it In The Real World.

I don't see the point in labelling anything as an "oxymoron" though
As this discussion proves ;)
Oxymoron just means a "self contradictory statement or name" IIRC. It doesn' t mean "is stupid" .

maybe it really exists, maybe it doesn't, but the fact is that there are a lot of tales and stories about it and that's good enough to draw on from a SF perspective IMO.

Yes, exactly. You seem to keep reading what I'm saying as an indictment of Psionics in gaming, which isn't what I'm positing at all.
 
captainjack23 said:
Spontanious human combustion, Spontanious combustion,

AFAIK those have been explained away as really weird combinations of the clothes people wear, atmospheric conditions at the time and proximity to flame? I don't recall hearing about people willing others to ignite and it supposedly working.
 
True, but...

While each of our brains, and the OS it runs may be unique, for humans, at least, they are all derived from the same Open Source code, if you will. [snipped simply for brevity]
Telepathy between two trained Psion's shouldn't be that hard at all - as long as each were trained to "transmit" the same protocol or anguage.

Thats an interesting way of looking at it, and actually makes me want to reconsider some of my own thoughts in the matter. I mean, I'd be delighted if I was wrong -until it became weaponized, I suppose.....

I used cryptography as an example as it seems that each brain does have its own code -the neural pathways are retermined stochastically -but your poihnt about an underlying base code is good, and points out that thought may just be the interface between brain and mind...which is esoteric enough to make my thoughts lock up, I admit.

To put all that in game terms, Telepathy should be automtatic with other psions, and get more difficult as the subject you're attempting to mind read gets further away in cultural and/or biological terms. Frankly, I don't think humans should be able to read Aslan, Hiver, Kkree or any other alien minds at all and vice versa.

Nice touch about Psion-psion contact. Would you think that alien psions could communicate -treating Psi as Latin or Esperanto ? An articifical way of communicating across species IF you know it ?



teleportation and tk seem pretty well defined (in black box terms).
I'm actually not all that happy with the definition of teleportation in Traveller. I understand the whole conservation of momentum thing being there, but it doesn't seem to tie well with other things for me.

FREX, the only way psionic teleportation makes sense to me is that it's a form of internal j-drive - that is, when the psion activates it, a little "bubble" forms around their person, and they "jump" though an unknown dimension to another location.

But if that's the case, shouldn't psionic teleportation be more consistent with the way j-drive works? In which case, it should barely be useful at all - a week to jump, doesn't operate well within a gravity well, etc. Either that, or J-drive needs some tweaking to bring the two closer together.

I'm not even sure that teleportation is explained in the detail you mention above; It's the one power which IMO comes closest to automatically breaking traveller as rules and as OTU. I toyed around with requring a seven day delay (carry water, expect to lose weight and be bored, or take Fast drug or hibernate), but all the other jump-like stuff was, as you point out, becomes an issue. Now I just avaod it at all costs...

It will be interesting to see if Psion attempts any kind of discussion of the why of Psi.
 
I would say that emotions and base psychological needs - fear, pride, hunger, lust, love etc - should be universal (though subject to misinterpretation if read in alien minds). But reading surface thoughts would require understanding of the language and possibly neurology of the target.
 
EDG said:
captainjack23 said:
Spontanious human combustion, Spontanious combustion,

AFAIK those have been explained away as really weird combinations of the clothes people wear, atmospheric conditions at the time and proximity to flame? I don't recall hearing about people willing others to ignite and it supposedly working.

To some extent there are articulated explanations involving those along with body build and chemistry. They seem to explain some cases, and not others -the good explanations are generally specific to a specific incident.

Still, all studies of psi or remote veiwing have either failed to reproduce results, or can be more easily duplicated by stage magicians - so they're in the same boat as pk, as far as I see it.

There's some examples of what might be mild applied Pk in the poltergeist literature (not fiction ;) ) and in some obscure engineering studies*, as well as paranormal research (match lighting at a distance, energising lightbulbs. etc IIRC)




*specifically not described as Psi, by the way, lest they be mocked -I think googling on Statistical anomalies as one term will find a good website on the subject.
 
EDG said:
I would say that emotions and base psychological needs - fear, pride, hunger, lust, love etc - should be universal (though subject to misinterpretation if read in alien minds). But reading surface thoughts would require understanding of the language and possibly neurology of the target.

Sounds reasonable. Still....did you know that other cultures often define very different basic psychological drives ? For instance, the Japanese have one which they identify in humans and animals which has no direct translation in English, but seems to mean somthing like longing for belongingness ? I point this out simply out of perversity, and to suggest that even emotions and drives we consider basic can not be. Does an aslan feel love ? Friendship ? How 'bout a hiver....the one I know is pretty friendly, but is it all observer anthromorphism ? I mean, he's a hiver and all. He probably only wants me to think that -or to doubt that...or ...to....ummmm...doubt that I think that he thinks what I think about his.......or...aaaaaaaasadsfliq3 cx29EYU3NELA;e90$@(@%9h c
Cortical Exception Error.
Norman Recalibrate.
 
captainjack23 said:
Nice touch about Psion-psion contact. Would you think that alien psions could communicate -treating Psi as Latin or Esperanto ? An articifical way of communicating across species IF you know it ?
Gosh darnit - just you asking the question made me think of other stuff.

Well, if an alien could be trained to think in this "Psi-language", then there is probably no reason a non-psi couldn't be trained to do so as well. If I'm a psion, and I want to be able to communicate with you telepathically, there is no reason I can think of that we couldn't work together to learn how. From a non-psion point of view, this is probably a better way to do it - that way the telepath can only read the thoughts I'm projecting.

A culture like the Zhodani, where Psionics is an everday fact of life, would probably lead to a culture that trains the non-psions like this automatically. And despite Imperial fears, a Zho would probably have a hard time reading an Imperial mind because of it.


EDG said:
I would say that emotions and base psychological needs - fear, pride, hunger, lust, love etc - should be universal (though subject to misinterpretation if read in alien minds). But reading surface thoughts would require understanding of the language and possibly neurology of the target.
When I was going over reading emotions, I was refering to the fact that in most people, emotions are tied to base physical reactions as well. I was thinking that the empath wouldn't really be reading the emotion itself, merely the inputs/outputs at the brain that dictate those physical reactions - kind of a remote EKG/Lie detector set up - therefore making it easier to "read" than surface thoughts.

IF this is how empathy would work, then it might not work reliably in other species. Other species may have completely different physical reactions to the base emotions. Of course, I don't see any reason that an empath couldn't train to read the differences - but I think it would require training that required an understanding of a species base physiology, and perhaps phsychology.

This conversation makes me wish that someone would really sit down and do a comprehansive treatment of Psionics that covers all this in a way that at least seems realistic, internally consistent and comprehensive.
 
captainjack23 said:
Still....did you know that other cultures often define very different basic psychological drives ?

I would say a sense of "longing for belongingness" is a universal human need (if not something hardwired into all of us), not just particularly a Japanese one.

Maybe alien races are wired differently, but IMO those basic things will all be common. They may repress some and enhance others, and maybe they'll have different one too, but there will still be a core that goes all the way to their animal origins - fear (fight/flight), love, hunger, lust for power/to be alpha male, all that sort of stuff. Hivers would probably have an emotion for investigation to account for their curiosity urge too.

If nothing else, they need that so that we as human players can usefully conceptualise what the alien is feeling. Maybe the psion would just interpret the emotions in a human way even if they aren't directly equivalent to anything human.
 
kristof65 said:
IF this is how empathy would work, then it might not work reliably in other species. Other species may have completely different physical reactions to the base emotions. Of course, I don't see any reason that an empath couldn't train to read the differences - but I think it would require training that required an understanding of a species base physiology, and perhaps phsychology.

If a standard alien response to "fear" is to go on the offensive (i.e. there's no "flight" in "fight or flight" for them), then a human could easily misinterpret that if they went by body language. But a psion (or someone familiar with the species) would be able to sense the fear and understand that the alien is afraid.

But yeah, I don't think anyone can just go into an alien mind "blind" and understand what they're sensing without some observation/understanding of the species beforehand.
 
EDG said:
I would say a sense of "longing for belongingness" is a universal human need (if not something hardwired into all of us), not just particularly a Japanese one.
Thats because I did a crappy job of defining/describing the idea. IIRC it's Amae
describing a basic drive, it means something like the need "to be a defined part of a greater whole, to be a part in a structure". And as a verb, something like "to depend and presume upon another's benevolence."

We have remarkably few hardwires -in fact - but this isn't the discussion for that topic.

But yeah, I don't think anyone can just go into an alien mind "blind" and understand what they're sensing without some observation/understanding of the species beforehand.

Could well be operationalized as part of Psionic training - without it, you just get snow....
 
captainjack23 said:
We have remarkably few hardwires -in fact - but this isn't the discussion for that topic.

I think it is, actually. Those "hardwires" pretty much define our base emotions.
 
Just to throw this out - three years back I saw a demonstration of a bio feedback device that supposedly used 'brain wave' (alpha/beta regulation or some such?) as an input device (presenter played pong, navigated a maze and controlled a presentation). It was a non-profit setup for handicap and I spent some time talking to them - and examining the device. Unless they were hiding things - it was a head band that did not use contact sensors (no thermal couples, UT, IR, or read pulse or anything) - scope output seemed realistic - results were mixed when audience and myself tried the device, but the presenter and aid demonstrated and explained the bio feedback training required to get into the proper state. Degreed professionals (via claims and history with client) that seemed sincere - though such things would not be too hard to fake.

Anyway - supports the idea of training a brain to emit a given 'pattern'... (and a cool way to play pacman) [Can't believe I misspelled pacman!
 
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