Psionics: Real or reasonable ?

[Mongoose Pete]

Psionics fantastic!?

I think you'll find that it is more difficult to find (space travelling) Sci-Fi which lacks psionics in one form or another. :twisted:

 

[alex_greene]

Then of course, in the literary sphere, Larry Niven's characters frequently encountered psionics or were psionics; and Dan Simmons' "The Hollow Man" is a classic SF tale of telepathy and tragedy.

Don't forget it's also common in Anne McCaffrey's various books. Ships, Pern, Talents, Even in the Planet Pirate books there's some use among other species of talents.

And please don't forget the two seminal works on SF psionics: 'The Demolished man' and 'Tiger Tiger'. Both by Alfred Bester...

Gully Foyle's "I give you the stars!" rant towards the end of the latter book still brings a shiver down my spine, every time I read it.

 

[Loz]

Larry Niven came up with some of the most inventive uses for psionics. My favourite was always the Grog: a fleshy pyramid with teeth that sat there, immobile, compelling food to come to it with its mind...

 

[alex_greene]

Niven posited the Grogs as the Thrints' ultimate evolved form.

And where you have Thrintun, you could also have the telepathy-immune Bandersnatchi ... :lol:

 

[BP]

...My point, I guess, being that it is harder for someone to keep an open mind about the possibility of reliable psionics than it is for them to accept the idea of FTL or gravitics - something else for which science currently has no answer, and so therefore considers impossible.

Science does not consider gravitics nor FTL impossible - only improbable. In fact, gravity is still a highly open area. And scientists are constantly testing these limits (like the Clarke quote).

Psionics, however, has no scientific evidence to even make a Special or General Theory of Psionics which can be tested. So it is largely ignored by the mainstream scientific community.

I think this is generally why FTL and Gravitics is found more acceptable than psionics by some.

For myself, an avid reader of SCiFi for over 30 years, it is the use to which the psionics is put and its limitations that affects its believability. If I have a large group of humans/sophonts that can read minds I want to know what keeps them from taking control. Good authors achieve this balance (Asimov for instance). As long as it passes the believability test, I accept it as readily as anti-gravity or tachyon drives.

For FLT or gravitics there is a real world framework of limitations which can remain in place with one exception (well, from a laymans perspective). For psionics, there is no framework to create from and therefore no balancing limitations, so they have to be made up. Doing this well enough to be 'believable' is therefore harder. And the more made up an aspect of Sci-Fi, the more it feels like Fantasy.

The OTU is so vast and old that blending psionics in well is quite a challenge. I think this is why early on the Imperium was defined as anti-psionic. I hope the Psion book does a good job of setting limits and maintaining balance. Regardless, there a quite a few who will reject it out of hand.

In my TU, psionics are rare - so I can avoid the complexity of balancing them. I find this the case in the majority of Sci-Fi. In SW the Force is regulated by a genetic trait (of course, this doesn't explain why it is not bred or engineered or cloned - but the Movies are still entertaining). Asimov gives a robot psionics. Firefly gives it to a little girl. In all these, it is a major part of the plot, but part of the stories are specifically related to why psionics are rare - placing those limits.

Personally, I find no reason to believe or disbelieve in psionics (or ghosts, etc.) - i.e. I am open minded about it. Given a lack of evidence and personal experience I would say it is improbable. Impossible - nah! I've seen Jackie Chan movies - I know there is probably no such thing

 

[cbrunish]

It's easy to dismiss psionics and psychic phenom as hoaxes. But if psychic phenom is indeed real, it only happens to people that are "sensitive" to it. So therefore it would be hard to duplicate it in an experiment to "prove".

I personally can not count anything out. I read that the head of the U.S. patent office stated that they needed to quit giving patents because everything that was to be invented has been (paraphrased and probably badly )! This was in the late 1800's (I'm thinking 1880's).

Take religion for example. Almost completely unable to prove but yet billions of people have some faith or another.

Sometimes there is no rational explanation for things.

And as for MTU, I like psionics. But used sparringly (except in Zhodani areas).

Just my 2 credits worth.

 

[kristof65]

Psionics, however, has no scientific evidence to even make a Special or General Theory of Psionics which can be tested.

Not necessarily.

There is a lot of evidence that the brain works on electrical impulses, and the electromagnetic spectrum is pretty well understood. It's entirely probable that some brains could transmit and/or receive signals somewhere within the electromagnetic spectrum, thus making things like empathy and telepathy possible.

That said, we don't even understand enough of how the brain works internally to even begin to build an understanding of how it could operate externally. Anyway, my point is that possible "psionics" is more likely just an extension of what we know about communicating via the electronic spectrum.

 

[EDG]

Or you could go the "Trinity" route and declare Psi as another fundamental force of the universe.

 

[Infojunky]

Thinking of Emile and the Dutchman I have pondered the concept of Psi-Negative, individuals that Telepathy doesn't work on at all.

Mechanic if the Psi Roll is 2 (snake eyes on the dice).....

IF there is then there is the possibility there isn't for some...

 

[captainjack23]

Psionics, however, has no scientific evidence to even make a Special or General Theory of Psionics which can be tested.

Not necessarily.

There is a lot of evidence that the brain works on electrical impulses, and the electromagnetic spectrum is pretty well understood. It's entirely probable that some brains could transmit and/or receive signals somewhere within the electromagnetic spectrum, thus making things like empathy and telepathy possible.

That said, we don't even understand enough of how the brain works internally to even begin to build an understanding of how it could operate externally. Anyway, my point is that possible "psionics" is more likely just an extension of what we know about communicating via the electronic spectrum.

The main problem with the elecromagnetic idea is that the current that the brain generates is both DC and microvoltage levels -thus has a vanishingly small range, and quick attenuation -its why nerves are electro chemical boosters to retransmit any signal -and the micro voltage is likely so that unwanted interference between nerves is minimized./

That said, there are neurons that respond to electromagnetic propagation fronts (mico EMP, is one way to look at it), and that's one of the way we localize sounds we hear and classify internal vs external dialogue. So, if one had access to the operating language of a human brain, and a way to spoof that location system system (not all that hard) one could implant verbal information that was interpreted as ones own thoughts......indeed, one could make my spoken commands appear to be your internal thoughts -which is mildly scary, even if you don't know me. . Conversely one could get another person to speak their internal thoughts without knowing they were doing so by flummoxing the system.

Regardless, my thought is that game use doesn't require a well defined reason for Psi, becuase I think it provides a sense of mystery in a high tecc info saturated setting. From which one could argue that it shouldn't have and easy explaination, or a wide use. Part of traveller has always been about uncovering knowlege of the world around the players -and Psi is both the ultimate tool for uncovering it, and the final mystery.

 

[EDG]

Regardless, my thought is that game use doesn't require a well defined reason for Psi, becuase I think it provides a sense of mystery in a high tecc info saturated setting.

There's already plenty of mystery in a high-tech info-saturated settings. Space is supposed to be mysterious and deadly after all... it's just that the OTU kills all that by making everything defined, and tasks that should be dangerous as easy and routine (TNE fixed that to an extent, because it actually used the rules that already existed for environmental TL limits, and when those failed, billions died). Humans just aren't equipped to deal with the hostile environment of space, either on a physical or psychological level.

Psi can add an element of horror/mystery, but it's not the only way to do it. Hell, crash on an alien planet without your high tech gizmos and that'll be horrifying enough. How do you know what to eat? Is that creature there friendly or will it tear you to shreds (or even melt your mind?).

 

[captainjack23]

Psi can add an element of horror/mystery, but it's not the only way to do it. Hell, crash on an alien planet without your high tech gizmos and that'll be horrifying enough. How do you know what to eat? Is that creature there friendly or will it tear you to shreds (or even melt your mind?).

Yes, very true. Space is a mystery -heck, I think even the OTU is mysterious depending on presentation (no, I'm not starting an argument about that, its an (YMMV)^2 thing as far as I can see :wink: ) However, for my games, I like to have qualitatively different ways to inflict mystery on the players. It keeps it from getting stale, or at least it keeps me from getting stale, which causes poor games. So, the more elements the better, as far as I'm concerned. Currently, Psi is having an effect on the campaign, but largely offstage; all the players are getting are the shadows -thus far.

 

[kristof65]

The main problem with the elecromagnetic idea is that the current that the brain generates is both DC and microvoltage levels -thus has a vanishingly small range, and quick attenuation -its why nerves are electro chemical boosters to retransmit any signal -and the micro voltage is likely so that unwanted interference between nerves is minimized.

My primary point wasn't so much that I thought we could get the human brain to broadcasting/receiving in the electromagnetic spectrum, just that if we do eventually find some truth to psionics - or at least empathy/telepathy - it's likely to be an extension or variation of what we've already learned about the electromagnetic spectrum - and probably, as you mention, the electro-chemical stuff we already know about the brain.

I've worked with electronics and radios long enough to know the micro-voltages of the brain wouldn't be caplable of broadcasting even a few feet. But OTOH, I've worked with electronics long enough to know that some wierd stuff happens even the best engineers don't quite understand. And we've barely scratched the surface of what we can learn about the brain. So when (if) we do finally come to understand that which we don't yet understand, it's highly unlikely to be something entirely new, just a different outlook and better understanding of that which we already know about.

 

[captainjack23]

The main problem with the elecromagnetic idea is that the current that the brain generates is both DC and microvoltage levels -thus has a vanishingly small range, and quick attenuation -its why nerves are electro chemical boosters to retransmit any signal -and the micro voltage is likely so that unwanted interference between nerves is minimized.

My primary point wasn't so much that I thought we could get the human brain to broadcasting/receiving in the electromagnetic spectrum, just that if we do eventually find some truth to psionics - or at least empathy/telepathy - it's likely to be an extension or variation of what we've already learned about the electromagnetic spectrum - and probably, as you mention, the electro-chemical stuff we already know about the brain.

I've worked with electronics and radios long enough to know the micro-voltages of the brain wouldn't be caplable of broadcasting even a few feet. But OTOH, I've worked with electronics long enough to know that some wierd stuff happens even the best engineers don't quite understand. And we've barely scratched the surface of what we can learn about the brain. So when (if) we do finally come to understand that which we don't yet understand, it's highly unlikely to be something entirely new, just a different outlook and better understanding of that which we already know about.

Sorry, didn't realizre you were an electronics type -I could have summed that up much more quickly . And let me assure you that wierd stuff also happens with brain electronics that isn't well understood.

I like your point, now that I understand it. It may be that the mechanism for Psi may turn out to be some odd form of tk that manipulates or counts neurotransmitters in a subjects brain; or somthing that causes a rewire as I suggested about the sound detection systems. My main objection to theories equating game psi with IRL psi without a black box really biols down to two points:

First is that the existing research seems to indicate that internal communication language of the brain is essentially encrypted uniquely for each brain, and at different timepoints in the same brain -which make decryption a problem greater than cracking NSA super level mega prime number encryption - and which may never be amenable to calculation. So, even getting a means to 'image' a brains thought's may never produce useful information.

Second, while there are lots of perceptual, electronic and environmental anomalies, they remain just that -anomalies. Simply tacking an explaination onto the observation of anomalies, such as ghosts or psi has is as amuch speculation as religions and/or the flying spagetti monster ; plus, research has yet to produce a predictable or repeatable demonstration of psi, or one without a simler explainiation (and demonstration) of normal phenomenon (such as stage magic).

Still, I think that Psionics in Traveller are very useful, but for the OTU needs strict limitation to avoid superpowered campaigns; unless that's what one wants. There is , after all a rich SF heritage of the conflict that occurs withen a "changed" generation starts emerging.

My position that "realistic Psionics is an Oxymoron" refers to the lack of realism in any IRL psi evidence; its hard to claim a game interpretation has liklihood or realism when there seems to be none IRL. If one treats it as a black box, it works fine.

It seems that for any campaign with Psi, there are a few questions which every GM needs to consider - I'd say, off the top of my head, some of them (for ESP) are:

Does telepathy require a common spoken language ?
Is cross species telepathy possible, and if so, what are the conditions.
Is telepathy limited to Sentient beings -one could probably psi a chimp or a dolphin, but what about a dog or cat ?

Ditto the above for telempathy.


teleportation and tk seem pretty well defined (in black box terms).

Any suggestions as to other black-boxy questions that would help ?

 

[Charakan]

...and , hope of hopes, surely you can't have managed to bag a license for Luther Arkwright -could you have ?

This!!

And now I find out I'm not the only Luther Arkwright fan kicking around these boards.

Personally I don't have a problem with low level psionics in my games, i.e. low grade telepathy and telekenisis, but super power mind blasts are out as far as I'm concerned.

 

[EDG]

IMO Psi falls squarely into the category of "conjecture". We have an existing basis for that conjecture, even if it isn't scientific - namely, lots of subjective stories supposedly from direct experience covering telepathy, past lives, ghosts, remote viewing/clairvoyance etc. We don't seem to have many stories (beyond purely fictional ones made for literature, TV or movies) about more directly physical effects such as telekinesis, pyrokinesis, teleportation etc.

How it works doesn't really matter - in Traveller terms, maybe it is all somehow related to jump space and quantum effects, so armwaving about electrical impulses doesn't particularly help there.

 

[captainjack23]

Duplicate post deleted.

 

[captainjack23]

...and , hope of hopes, surely you can't have managed to bag a license for Luther Arkwright -could you have ?

This!!

And now I find out I'm not the only Luther Arkwright fan kicking around these boards.

Counting Loz, that's at least three of us.

 

[captainjack23]

For me, conjecture and story/anecdotal/folklore examples abound for tk,Pk and teleportation, and fit it just just fine; and as you say, it doesn't matter. "conjectural Psionics isn't an oxymoron".

I'm glad we agree so closely, except where we agree it doesn't matter. :wink:

[snip]
How it works doesn't really matter - in Traveller terms, maybe it is all somehow related to jump space and quantum effects,

Which brings up a question: Wasn't there a pretty good discussion of the potential Hows of psi in T4 - in the psionics book ? Anyone remember what they are ?

 

[EDG]

For me, conjecture and story/anecdotal/folklore examples abound for tk,Pk and teleportation, and fit it just just fine; and as you say, it doesn't matter. "conjectural Psionics isn't an oxymoron".

I'm talking more about modern stories/examples. It may be pseudoscience, but there have been plenty of modern investigations into what are basically considered "paranormal phenomena". I'm extrapolating the more modern interpretations of those phenomena to a scifi setting, rather than the more "mystical" interpretations.

I don't see the point in labelling anything as an "oxymoron" though, it just distracts from the point at hand. We're talking about something for which solid evidence is hard to come by (or is quickly dismissed by the mainstream scientific community, anyway) - maybe it really exists, maybe it doesn't, but the fact is that there are a lot of tales and stories about it and that's good enough to draw on from a SF perspective IMO.