Psion is HERE!

[rust]

As I pointed out there, several pages ago, the issue of "Traveller: Setting or Mechanics?" appears to be behind most of the current objections.

I have to admit that I am really unable to understand why this could be
a reason for any heated argument.

For some, Traveller is the Third Imperium setting, for others it is the ru-
les system - so where is the problem ? :?

 

[EDG]

It seems to me that if Mongoose have declared that "Traveller" is the Rules and not the Setting now, then everyone else needs to either accept that or shut the frak up. Mongoose are the ones who paid for the license, not them - so Mongoose gets to decide what it is, not them.

Arguing about it or slagging off Mongoose (or Matt) for making that decision isn't going to change a damn thing and just wastes everyone's time.

 

[rust]

Besides, the OTU does not disappear when Mongoose defines Traveller
as the rules instead of the setting - all of the OTU stuff is still there and
can be used, just as before Mongoose Traveller was published, nothing
is lost.

 

[captainjack23]

If the OTU is going to be a feature of MGT, its tech should probably be explicitly set out somewhere, even if its just an S&P article, or a TL table that segregates the non-OTU stuff. Heck, I'd even write it.

Well, judging from comments on COTI, Matt would go for that -in fact, at least one of the more strident posters seems to have settled on tht as the best solution, in fact.

That said, while its fun to vent, and I've done it my share, I'd just humbly suggest that we not spread the problem cross site by indulging in critiquing their discussion here. If nothing else, most of them are still on this site, and naming calls...

EDG, I know you hate it when I suggest dowsing or moving a topic, so lets not argue abut that here. If you disagree, just ignore me. Its just a suggestion.

 

[GypsyComet]

As I pointed out there, several pages ago, the issue of "Traveller: Setting or Mechanics?" appears to be behind most of the current objections.

I have to admit that I am really unable to understand why this could be
a reason for any heated argument.

Another reason why this is cited as a "religious" argument. If you care, you care a LOT. If you don't care, or were (like you) able to reconcile the dichotomy for yourself, the point of the argument is incomprehensible. This is a fairly typical characteristic of actual religious argumentation.

 

[EDG]

If nothing else, most of them are still on this site, and naming calls...

All the better. They need to be made aware of how stupid they look.

I don't have issues with people who don't like MGT - it's not going to appeal to everyone. But they go far beyond that.

 

[GypsyComet]

That said, while its fun to vent, and I've done it my share, I'd just humbly suggest that we not spread the problem cross site by indulging in critiquing their discussion here. If nothing else, most of them are still on this site, and naming calls...

Which is why I'm trying to remain detached and academic about it at this point. Being part of the argument should be done there (assuming Hunter doesn't just nuke the whole thing). Talking about the argument as a whole should done at a safe distance.

I'm done now, though, unless Matt wants an article out of me.

 

[atpollard]

They're certainly not contributing anything useful to Traveller by ranting and railing about MGT. We get the hint, they don't like it and they don't like the direction it's going in.

While no one finds endlesss pages of two individuals 'screaming' the same point past each other (on any forum) more tedious than I do, "they don't like it" is really not a fair summation of most of their criticism. It is THAT sort of generalization that provolks most of the "ranting and railing".

By a quick show of hands, how many here knew that all of the MgT black covered books labeled "Traveller" were deliberately not intended to represent the Original/Official Traveller Universe? Per Matt, they are only and primarily intended as generic sci-fi rules for a variety of universes.

Who knew that only the MgT books labeled "The Third Imperium" are intended to represent the OTU?

That distinction really does cast a very different light on what one should expect on a black covered book called Traveller:Mercenary or Traveller: High Guard.

To redefine the term "Traveller" to mean "a Universal Sci-fi Rules System" and "The Third Imperium" to mean "the Original Traveller Universe" is something that would inevidable create the sort of semantic debate that it has.

None of this excuses bad behavior (from any side), but it is as unfair to dismiss their criticisms with an attitude of "they just don't get it" as it would be to dismiss all praise as "just blind adoration".

Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[rust]

By a quick show of hands, how many here knew that all of the MgT black covered books labeled "Traveller" were deliberately not intended to represent the Original/Official Traveller Universe?

Who knew that only the MgT books labeled "The Third Imperium" are intended to represent the OTU?

Mongoose had stated that very clearly, several times, here on this forum,
during the first such debate almost a year ago.

 

[atpollard]

Mongoose had stated that very clearly, several times, here on this forum, during the first such debate almost a year ago.

While it is quite possible that I missed it (or simply misremember it), I recall that as more of the (MgT) Traveller books being 'Traveller' with a little extra to help it interface with other Universes. I did not catch that the term "Traveller" (wherever you see it) now means "Mongoose GURPS" and never means "The universe of the Third Imperium".

 

[GypsyComet]

By a quick show of hands, how many here knew that all of the MgT black covered books labeled "Traveller" were deliberately not intended to represent the Original/Official Traveller Universe? Per Matt, they are only and primarily intended as generic sci-fi rules for a variety of universes.

Who knew that only the MgT books labeled "The Third Imperium" are intended to represent the OTU?

I know its been stated a number of times, and I was aware of it fairly early, but I couldn't tell you when, exactly.

 

[rust]

This is the first sentence of how Mongoose introduces Traveller on their
website:

"Based on the 'Classic Traveller' rules set, streamlined and updated for
the 21st Century, the Traveller main rulebook will provide everything you
need to explore the universes of science fiction settings."

I did always read this as the description of a rules system for many dif-
ferent setting, not just one (OTU) setting.

 

[atpollard]

I stand enlightened, but still find it someting of a semantic nightmare.

 

[atpollard]

This is the first sentence of how Mongoose introduces Traveller on their
website:

"Based on the 'Classic Traveller' rules set, streamlined and updated for
the 21st Century, the Traveller main rulebook will provide everything you
need to explore the universes of science fiction settings."

I did always read this as the description of a rules system for many dif-
ferent setting, not just one (OTU) setting.

Ironically, I WAS aware of that status for the MgT Main Rulebook. I was not aware that MgT: Mercenary, MgT: Scout, and MgT: High Guard are intended to function in exactly the same non-universe-specific format.

As a logical consequence, the Traveller:B5 book should not require modification of the 'universal' MgT:HG starship design rules. If MgT:HG had been intended as OTU centric, then one would expect MgT:B5 to have changes to the MgT:HG tables to translate it to that universe.

Am I being coherent?

 

[rust]

Am I being coherent?

Of course you are.

The Universe of Babylon 5 does indeed use the High Guard system, which
did disappoint me somewhat, because this core shipbuilding system does
not fit the Babylon 5 universe very well - I would have preferred far more
changes and adaptations.

 

[alex_greene]

This is the first sentence of how Mongoose introduces Traveller on their
website:

"Based on the 'Classic Traveller' rules set, streamlined and updated for
the 21st Century, the Traveller main rulebook will provide everything you
need to explore the universes of science fiction settings."

I did always read this as the description of a rules system for many different setting, not just one (OTU) setting.

Actually, I thought likewise, especially when the B5 and Judge Dredd setings were mentioned. Seeing as I came from freelancing for White Wolf on their World of Darkness franchise, I could see how the concept of there being a Traveller core rule mechanic, applicable across a number of licensed settings, could work.

Now, back on my track. Psion is apparently on the shelves of Fan Boy 3 in Manchester - so I aim to be there tomorrow to get it.

 

[EDG]

While no one finds endlesss pages of two individuals 'screaming' the same point past each other (on any forum) more tedious than I do, "they don't like it" is really not a fair summation of most of their criticism. It is THAT sort of generalization that provolks most of the "ranting and railing".

No, they really don't like it and don't like where it's going. They can paint it anyway they like, but that's what it ultimately boils down to. And they want it to conform to their own subjective standards of "greatness", and they really don't understand that however they thought Traveller was defined as over 30+ years simply doesn't apply anymore. The paradigm has changed and they don't want to accept it.

By a quick show of hands, how many here knew that all of the MgT black covered books labeled "Traveller" were deliberately not intended to represent the Original/Official Traveller Universe? Per Matt, they are only and primarily intended as generic sci-fi rules for a variety of universes.

Who knew that only the MgT books labeled "The Third Imperium" are intended to represent the OTU?

I did, on both counts. As, I suspect, did anyone who was actually paying attention here...

That distinction really does cast a very different light on what one should expect on a black covered book called Traveller:Mercenary or Traveller: High Guard.

Now, that I have raised here in the past. I think it was ill-advised to name them after the old books, because it created the expectation that they'd be the same as the old ones (and they clearly weren't) and led to unfair comparisons. Yes, they covered similar topics, but IMO they should have had new names to distinguish them from the previous books.

 

[captainjack23]

If nothing else, most of them are still on this site, and naming calls...

All the better. They need to be made aware of how stupid they look.

I don't have issues with people who don't like MGT - it's not going to appeal to everyone. But they go far beyond that.

My point isn't that it'll hurt their feelings, nor do I think that there is any way to make anyone aware of "how stupid they look" that will do any good (I've learned that). I'd just like to not have them feel motivated to defend their points/ego/personality here....

Academic critiques from a safe distance are fine - discussions of talent vs ego, and worth of contribution are way more likely to call the deamon that you name...

 

[AndrewW]

Can we keep politics from another forum from spreading over to here?

1. Sending out all the remaining mail order copies of Psion.

 

[towerwarlock]

I happen to like the new MGT versus the old Little Black Books version of Traveller. The old books were not easy to find everything you needed for character generation easily. Also, I got into it in the late 1980's early 1990's just before TNE and those old books were impossible to get all of because of a lack of easy sources for used books. Nowadays we have the internet, but back then it was impossible. At least when Megatraveller and TNE came out it was easy to order the books. Now with Mongoose and the internet we can all come together and share ideas, provide errata and point out where someone's spellchecker committed suicide and died screaming. Also each of us can share ideas and sources for ideas.

I plan to pick up Hammer's Slammers, Psion and several other books when they come out and convert the source material to my own use. Most of us do this with Traveller and other game systems like Dungeons and Dragons. After all, how many of us actually use the Game Worlds for Dungeons and Dragons as they were laid out? What may not work for one person may be useful for another.

So Mongoose, Keep on Trucking and to heck with the nay sayers. As for Hunter, I do not know if anyone has even heard from him in over a year. I still enjoy T20. I bought my copy of ebay from Marc Miller and he even autographed it for me. Remember Traveller, regardless of what anyone says, is what YOU make it.