Proposal: The White Star - The Knife Fight Variant
- Thread starter Hindsight
- Start date
Okay,
I still don't think the Whitestar needs more damage with this solution.
I also think we're changing the situation against some races to one of just taking more time to get the kill. What this means in a lot of games is the ISA still win, he just doesn't kill as many ships doing it. Which might be a nerf, in total points earned but doesn't change the status quo.
Mind you that is only against races that can't force an engagement, usually meaning mostly 1/45 ships with eight inch secondaries (ten inch if the ISA is willing to give up a weapon for immunity).
Tourney wise this can happen... but that's okay I guess, take stuff with 2/45.
One thing not being mentioned is the new ISA All Stop/ old All Stop means the white star doesn't have to close on you any particular amount. He can just slide forward a tiny bit to reestablish range while you totter around trying to get him back into arc.
Not saying this isn't valid to the show, but white stars did die to the front guns of a standard omega... they weren't immune to death by standard ships and they didn't stand to the side of anything avoiding all return fire.
The change to fire flexibility is the only nerf here, the stand in the shadow and kill is the same vs most races... the Centauri, Vree and Brakiri all benefit here, but the rest are dealing with the same old issue... the range 12 sniper rather than the range 18 sniper.
Depending on firepower greed to get the whitestar player into range ten should have already worked, it didn't, why will it now?
Ripple
I still don't think the Whitestar needs more damage with this solution.
I also think we're changing the situation against some races to one of just taking more time to get the kill. What this means in a lot of games is the ISA still win, he just doesn't kill as many ships doing it. Which might be a nerf, in total points earned but doesn't change the status quo.
Mind you that is only against races that can't force an engagement, usually meaning mostly 1/45 ships with eight inch secondaries (ten inch if the ISA is willing to give up a weapon for immunity).
Tourney wise this can happen... but that's okay I guess, take stuff with 2/45.
One thing not being mentioned is the new ISA All Stop/ old All Stop means the white star doesn't have to close on you any particular amount. He can just slide forward a tiny bit to reestablish range while you totter around trying to get him back into arc.
Not saying this isn't valid to the show, but white stars did die to the front guns of a standard omega... they weren't immune to death by standard ships and they didn't stand to the side of anything avoiding all return fire.
The change to fire flexibility is the only nerf here, the stand in the shadow and kill is the same vs most races... the Centauri, Vree and Brakiri all benefit here, but the rest are dealing with the same old issue... the range 12 sniper rather than the range 18 sniper.
Depending on firepower greed to get the whitestar player into range ten should have already worked, it didn't, why will it now?
Ripple
at range 12 it isnt a sniper as it generally can only hit one or 2 targets max. also one turn and slight move towards it gets you into range with even the shortest secondarys. ok this doesnt help out lumbering ships but not many raid ships are lumbering.
also alot of you you are all talking about secondary range, but we are talking about the primary weapon for the WS which most ships have further than 12" anyway.
Rawwar i wouldnt put all secondarys up to 10, only the pulse and only on g'quans or bigger if you are going to do anything (not that this is going to happen).
also alot of you you are all talking about secondary range, but we are talking about the primary weapon for the WS which most ships have further than 12" anyway.
Rawwar i wouldnt put all secondarys up to 10, only the pulse and only on g'quans or bigger if you are going to do anything (not that this is going to happen).
I stand by 12" as I've tested. I think it is a fair compromise, but requires 2 additional HP given all the extra fire we'll be taking. It will be situational, and this will help some fleets, and hurt others, but thats the main issue with ACTA.
If everything else isn't in balance, how do you balance something against everything else?
If everything else isn't in balance, how do you balance something against everything else?
l33tpenguin
Mongoose
This isn't chess, perfect balance will *never* happen.
And if certain fleets didn't have an edge over others, it wouldn't be as fun either. Every fleet balanced against every other fleet; where is the fun in that? While Rock Paper scissors isn't necessarily a good thing, Rock, paper, scissors, pickaxe, plywood and walnut* isn't so bad
* totally random objects, but you get the point
And if certain fleets didn't have an edge over others, it wouldn't be as fun either. Every fleet balanced against every other fleet; where is the fun in that? While Rock Paper scissors isn't necessarily a good thing, Rock, paper, scissors, pickaxe, plywood and walnut* isn't so bad
* totally random objects, but you get the point
You can't build a game, that ever intends to be balanced in a competetive tournament setting, when things are balanced rock paper scissors, without ways of dealing with each. Every other game, with much larger selections of units, has ways of dealing with each tactic. There are strengths, and there are weaknesses, but every time ISA takes an ally worth taking... we get called cheese, and running without allies leave us unable to deal with a good chunk of fleet tactics.l33tpenguin said:
Maybe I need to just take Da Boss up on his offer, grow my hair into a giant cornicopia of strange, and play Centauri.
l33tpenguin
Mongoose
Hindsight said:
In which case it isn't the white star that is the issue, its the game as a whole, certain mechanics, or entire fleets. If a fleet doesn't have any sort of counter to another fleet, then thats just broken.
Does cutting the beam on the white star to more than half really fix the fact that certain fleets, narn, abbai, just can't handle fast agile ships? No, it doesn't. So, ANY fast agile ship is going to be a problem. Do we just run around nerfing all fast agile ships? Or make it so fast agile ships all only have 8inch weapons? Does that really solve anything? Then what about the fleets that were decent or not that bad off against the white star to star? now they are even more effective.
Foxmeister
Mongoose
Hindsight said:
Sorry, but if you are playing a 5 Battle ISA fleet with only 3 WSs, your tests results are going to be so far from representative it is untrue.
Regards,
Dave
Foxmeister
Mongoose
Hindsight said:
And therein lies a major part of the problem - ISA can fill in *any* weaknesses in the fleet by use of allies. No other fleet has that flexibility and no other fleet can gain access to the best raid level ship in the game (the WhiteStar). Combine the two, and it's often a cheese fest.
Take the oft used Dag'Kar for example. There are two standout raid choices in the Narn list, the Dag'Kar and the Var'Nic - both are great ships. Is an ISA player likely to take a Var'Nic over a Dag'Kar? Nope, because the WS can do everything the Var'Nic can do but much better, but the Var'Nic is a *great* raid level ship.
You say that unless you take allies you can't deal with a good chunk of fleet tactics - well, welcome to everyone elses world!!
Regards,
Dave
Well I played the ISA last night had all the luck in the world and it still made no difference. Took out a whitestar on turn 2 before they even got to fire on me with a 6-6 crit and that only put me 2 points over it's damage. Would have put me a good 7 points over your average ship.
We played that the ISA had 10" guns. I did a average of 3 damage a turn.
At the end of the game I was utterly destroyed if I hadn't taken 2 allied Hyperions I would have died much sooner and more whitestars would have servived as it was the only ship i could get to F arc them.
It was 5 point raid. 2 whitestars servive unmolested. Half the damage I did was through fighters.
We played that the ISA had 10" guns. I did a average of 3 damage a turn.
At the end of the game I was utterly destroyed if I hadn't taken 2 allied Hyperions I would have died much sooner and more whitestars would have servived as it was the only ship i could get to F arc them.
It was 5 point raid. 2 whitestars servive unmolested. Half the damage I did was through fighters.
Battle Report
Fleets: 2 Motherships 2 Hyperions 1 Fighter Carrier 2 Shadowcloak Escorts v 5 WhiteStars all weapons 10” ACTA mission.
Turn 1
Dan wins the initiative we both move, me down my left flank, Dan deploys his fighters and there’s no firing, not much surprise there.
Turn 2
I win initiative this turn, carry on moving down the right flank. I slip up with my movement and Dan’s in range with one of his Motherships. Dan proceeds to roll ten beam hits with has Mothership and I dodge 4 of then the first but by no means last time I fail to roll average dodge rolls. He then rolls a bulkhead and a crit out of those six dice and the crit is a 6/6 (at this point I think of Rimmer giving his Risk rendition) a White Star goes pop Woohoo, err I mean damn. Am I daunted? Nope cos I know these things are as hard as nails and Dan got lucky.
Turn 3
Being Narn all be it Narn flying White Stars I’m a bit mad at this point and decide something in Dan’s fleet has to die this turn. As Hyperions have all round firepower one being a beam in its ass, two turns and no Stealth I decide this is the favourate target for termination. Dan wins the initiatve so I move as close to his fleet as possible prepared to weather the storm. The Hyperion cannot get out of the way and gets beamed mercilously and dies I then damage a Mothership and shoot down a few fighters who in return do a bit of damage to one of my White Stars. At the end of turn 3 it’s all even Stevens.
Turn 4
I then move through his fleet, get behind Dan’s Motherships and take their beams out of the equation for the rest of the game. I take out a Shadow Cloak Escort and severly damage the Fighter Carrier in a not too spectacular round of shooting. Dan whittles away at my White Stars with his fighters and Hyperion, he also mercilously concentrates his main effort on the most damaged White Star to take it out of the game. I’m up in ships at this point but taking damage.
Turn 5 & 6
These two turns are include some pathetic beam rolls and consistently below average dodge saves. I’m in the melee there’s loads of fighters about so I’m not Closing Blast Doors as I’m shooting what I can with Pulsars and Dan’s saving them on his Psi Cops roll. I take a couple of crits also in turn 5 and have to run away to repair them as one is no fire out of a random arc (I only have one) and the other is -1AD. Turn 6 has two ships repairing one of which I can’t get away so is firing one weapon at -1 AD this ship is also the most badly damaged and Dan being his despicable black glove self continues to concentrate on it and cripples it.
Turn 7
Things are looking bad for the ISA not because the nerf is overly bad but because my dodge rolls continue to be appallingly below average. In the melee I manoeuvre again so the Motherships can’t get a beam on me. At this point I’m getting desperate to kill anything and after the movement is finished the Fighter Carrier and Shadow Cloak look favourite. These are quickly despatched and my crippled White Star dies.
Turn 8
By this time we’re getting tired and engrossed in killing each other so forget to write some notes on the turns, who wins init etc. What is important though is that finally the remaining Hyperion moves to a position where I can get an attack run at it while still avoiding the Motherships beams. Suddenly my game plan comes back to me and I’m annoyed that it’s took me that long to mob the Hyperion though it might be good movement tactics on Dan’s part too. It gets everything but not before it’s got a telling shot in on my most poorly White Star suddenly I’m 3/2 down. I return fire and now it’s 2/2 as the Hyperion dies too. After a dodgy few turns where things were looking very black (pun intended) I have two White Stars one with about 4 damage 5 crew and the other 1/1 if not 0/1 knowing I’m not going to get beamed the pressure’s off and I’m feeling a lot more confident.
Turn 9/10
These two turns see me manoeuvre behind the Motherships and pop one each turn. Dan swears a bit as I roll three ones for damage during this mopping up exercise as due to Precise he takes all 9 damage plus the crit I rolled.
Turn 11/12
I All Powered to Engines to get away from his fighters and fly around until the game ends knowing I’ve won.
Conclusions
Well I’m not surprised I won but the good thing is it took ten turns for me to do it, the dead White Star on turn 2 was a bit of a shock but even then I felt I could turn it around. My below average dodge rolls kept it in the balance for quite some time, in fact I was swearing at the dice at one point because my rolls were so poor I was in danger of proving myself wrong and I was convinced that we were going to have to re-fight it. Fighters were responsible for this as they were just chipping away each turn, they never did a great deal of damage but what they did do helped Dan’s capital ships out once I was out of their main weapons arc. The fact that I actually pulled it around after all that convinced us both that as a nerf it was not all that bad. The only hole I’ve spotted is that reducing their range to 10” exposes then to is Breaching Pods. This can mean that if great care isn’t taken once they get within range to fire they could get attacked by a Breaching Pod and you’re then looking at a dead White Star. This in my opinion is harsh but not something that can’t be rectified, ie their own fighters, possibly some Anti Fighter, Advanced Anti Fighter or even some troops on board. I’m sort of against stopping their weakness to fighters but don’t want them to suffer certain death to Breaching Pods either.
Sorry if some bits are a bit hazy, we need a secretary to make note. Apply by PM
Next stop the Narn Regime.
Fleets: 2 Motherships 2 Hyperions 1 Fighter Carrier 2 Shadowcloak Escorts v 5 WhiteStars all weapons 10” ACTA mission.
Turn 1
Dan wins the initiative we both move, me down my left flank, Dan deploys his fighters and there’s no firing, not much surprise there.
Turn 2
I win initiative this turn, carry on moving down the right flank. I slip up with my movement and Dan’s in range with one of his Motherships. Dan proceeds to roll ten beam hits with has Mothership and I dodge 4 of then the first but by no means last time I fail to roll average dodge rolls. He then rolls a bulkhead and a crit out of those six dice and the crit is a 6/6 (at this point I think of Rimmer giving his Risk rendition) a White Star goes pop Woohoo, err I mean damn. Am I daunted? Nope cos I know these things are as hard as nails and Dan got lucky.
Turn 3
Being Narn all be it Narn flying White Stars I’m a bit mad at this point and decide something in Dan’s fleet has to die this turn. As Hyperions have all round firepower one being a beam in its ass, two turns and no Stealth I decide this is the favourate target for termination. Dan wins the initiatve so I move as close to his fleet as possible prepared to weather the storm. The Hyperion cannot get out of the way and gets beamed mercilously and dies I then damage a Mothership and shoot down a few fighters who in return do a bit of damage to one of my White Stars. At the end of turn 3 it’s all even Stevens.
Turn 4
I then move through his fleet, get behind Dan’s Motherships and take their beams out of the equation for the rest of the game. I take out a Shadow Cloak Escort and severly damage the Fighter Carrier in a not too spectacular round of shooting. Dan whittles away at my White Stars with his fighters and Hyperion, he also mercilously concentrates his main effort on the most damaged White Star to take it out of the game. I’m up in ships at this point but taking damage.
Turn 5 & 6
These two turns are include some pathetic beam rolls and consistently below average dodge saves. I’m in the melee there’s loads of fighters about so I’m not Closing Blast Doors as I’m shooting what I can with Pulsars and Dan’s saving them on his Psi Cops roll. I take a couple of crits also in turn 5 and have to run away to repair them as one is no fire out of a random arc (I only have one) and the other is -1AD. Turn 6 has two ships repairing one of which I can’t get away so is firing one weapon at -1 AD this ship is also the most badly damaged and Dan being his despicable black glove self continues to concentrate on it and cripples it.
Turn 7
Things are looking bad for the ISA not because the nerf is overly bad but because my dodge rolls continue to be appallingly below average. In the melee I manoeuvre again so the Motherships can’t get a beam on me. At this point I’m getting desperate to kill anything and after the movement is finished the Fighter Carrier and Shadow Cloak look favourite. These are quickly despatched and my crippled White Star dies.
Turn 8
By this time we’re getting tired and engrossed in killing each other so forget to write some notes on the turns, who wins init etc. What is important though is that finally the remaining Hyperion moves to a position where I can get an attack run at it while still avoiding the Motherships beams. Suddenly my game plan comes back to me and I’m annoyed that it’s took me that long to mob the Hyperion though it might be good movement tactics on Dan’s part too. It gets everything but not before it’s got a telling shot in on my most poorly White Star suddenly I’m 3/2 down. I return fire and now it’s 2/2 as the Hyperion dies too. After a dodgy few turns where things were looking very black (pun intended) I have two White Stars one with about 4 damage 5 crew and the other 1/1 if not 0/1 knowing I’m not going to get beamed the pressure’s off and I’m feeling a lot more confident.
Turn 9/10
These two turns see me manoeuvre behind the Motherships and pop one each turn. Dan swears a bit as I roll three ones for damage during this mopping up exercise as due to Precise he takes all 9 damage plus the crit I rolled.
Turn 11/12
I All Powered to Engines to get away from his fighters and fly around until the game ends knowing I’ve won.
Conclusions
Well I’m not surprised I won but the good thing is it took ten turns for me to do it, the dead White Star on turn 2 was a bit of a shock but even then I felt I could turn it around. My below average dodge rolls kept it in the balance for quite some time, in fact I was swearing at the dice at one point because my rolls were so poor I was in danger of proving myself wrong and I was convinced that we were going to have to re-fight it. Fighters were responsible for this as they were just chipping away each turn, they never did a great deal of damage but what they did do helped Dan’s capital ships out once I was out of their main weapons arc. The fact that I actually pulled it around after all that convinced us both that as a nerf it was not all that bad. The only hole I’ve spotted is that reducing their range to 10” exposes then to is Breaching Pods. This can mean that if great care isn’t taken once they get within range to fire they could get attacked by a Breaching Pod and you’re then looking at a dead White Star. This in my opinion is harsh but not something that can’t be rectified, ie their own fighters, possibly some Anti Fighter, Advanced Anti Fighter or even some troops on board. I’m sort of against stopping their weakness to fighters but don’t want them to suffer certain death to Breaching Pods either.
Sorry if some bits are a bit hazy, we need a secretary to make note. Apply by PM
Next stop the Narn Regime.
Battle report is pretty much as expected.
Shows the issue, whitestar is often very fun for the guy running it, not so fun for the other guy. Why, due to not shooting at all a lot of the time. This is better than it was under the 3+ dodge when it often could stand in the middle of the dilgar's front arc and laugh at the storm of fire... if you can find him you can hurt him now... but still not great.
Most races have some ships that can come around and fight them. And if you have those you do well, or well enough. But if you don't, your dead. Much like a lot of Drazi fleets facing the fighter swarm, or any swarm of non-b arced ships with two 90's. Rock Paper Scissors... not a fun game, it's why we all stopped playing when we were kids.
PERFECT balance is not achievable I agree, but don't use that as an excuse for just badly broken.
Ripple
Shows the issue, whitestar is often very fun for the guy running it, not so fun for the other guy. Why, due to not shooting at all a lot of the time. This is better than it was under the 3+ dodge when it often could stand in the middle of the dilgar's front arc and laugh at the storm of fire... if you can find him you can hurt him now... but still not great.
Most races have some ships that can come around and fight them. And if you have those you do well, or well enough. But if you don't, your dead. Much like a lot of Drazi fleets facing the fighter swarm, or any swarm of non-b arced ships with two 90's. Rock Paper Scissors... not a fun game, it's why we all stopped playing when we were kids.
PERFECT balance is not achievable I agree, but don't use that as an excuse for just badly broken.
Ripple
So as you see all the luck in the world and I still lost. Which I said I would before the game started. As the mothership has no rear weapon and well the shadowcloak can only pretend to be damaging a whitestar same with the fighter carrier. The fighters where doing a better job than I was with ships. True the range is an issue which is why I suggested 12" for the pulsers lets you shoot fighters at a reasonable range if they are dumb enough to stay in your arc. Breaching pods is a weakness but again I would have to spend Alliance points to get any cuz we the Corp only play fights.
Well am stumped I thought the reduced range and mass of fighters + 2 hyperions would give me a big advantage. And well it didn't it just provoked the ISA to taking out the hyperions first.
So I think that's me out of suggestions. Unless I try looking at better ally choices.
Edit: and for the record he did close blast doors like twice. So if he did he would have still had at least 1 more whitestar left. as I only just managed to kill the 3rd one.
So I think that's me out of suggestions. Unless I try looking at better ally choices.
Edit: and for the record he did close blast doors like twice. So if he did he would have still had at least 1 more whitestar left. as I only just managed to kill the 3rd one.
