Proposal: The White Star - The Knife Fight Variant

[Foxmeister]

if he trys to overfly you he can only get to 6" past you so you both get to fire.

No - he APtE and then ends up 13" past you. Next turn he can use his superior manouverability to get in a shot against your rear or flank, and the best you can do is All Stop and followed by an All Stop and Pivot next turn - which probably won't be enough for a ship with a 45 degree turn to bring it back into arc.

12" is enough to effect WSs even aginst narn and abbai. and anyway your g'quan has a 30" beam and an e-mine too.

E-mine - one of. Check. Once it's gone though, it's gone, and one of them can't kill a WS which can also slowly repair the damage anyway,

30" range beam - in my experience an ISA player who has lost initiative can still usually get out of range/arc.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Rawwar]

You do know the ramming damage from skin dancing failure would hardly scratch an Ashinta, right?

Well with 5 Scouts on the board you'd be painted and I'd have re-rolls and I'd be within 8" so your maths need readjusting too.

Who said it was a definative nerf anyway playtest this one then move on to the next to stop this constant theorising is what I've said.

 

[Hindsight]

I smell a pissing contest.

 

[Burger]

With 5 Ashinta's I could get your WS's in multiple arcs, too. How's 120 AD of twin-linked mini-beam feel?

 

[Rawwar]

Pissing on them :?:

Didn't think of that one. Do I need to pass a crew quality check :?:

 

[Burger]

pak'ma'ra would have a bonus to that SA.. methane toilets... BOOM!

 

[Rawwar]

With 5 Ashinta's I could get your WS's in multiple arcs, too. How's 120 AD of twin-linked mini-beam feel?

And I would just let you do that of course.

 

[Taran]

With 5 Ashinta's I could get your WS's in multiple arcs, too. How's 120 AD of twin-linked mini-beam feel?

And I would just let you do that of course.

Having played against 5 Ashintas, it's hard to not let it happen. But then, that's where the DD and TD and Precise come in handy on the WS. Ashintas die to WSs faster than WSs die to Ashintas.

And Ashintas have an 18" range on their minibeams, anway, so even Now if the WS is in range, so is the Ashinta. 12" range for the WS does nothing to that equation. It's always been best to get as close to Minbari as possible (with the sole exception of that ship with 4" range weaps...)

 

[katadder]

if he trys to overfly you he can only get to 6" past you so you both get to fire.

No - he APtE and then ends up 13" past you. Next turn he can use his superior manouverability to get in a shot against your rear or flank, and the best you can do is All Stop and followed by an All Stop and Pivot next turn - which probably won't be enough for a ship with a 45 degree turn to bring it back into arc.

12" is enough to effect WSs even aginst narn and abbai. and anyway your g'quan has a 30" beam and an e-mine too.

E-mine - one of. Check. Once it's gone though, it's gone, and one of them can't kill a WS which can also slowly repair the damage anyway,

30" range beam - in my experience an ISA player who has lost initiative can still usually get out of range/arc.

Regards,

Dave

yes he can APTE right past, but again that means hes not firing on you.
and yes you only have one e-mine but with a lucky hit (ie all shots hitting) it can cripple it. and theres the fact that crew dont regenerate.
how does a WS get out of range/arc on the 1st turn of a 30" beam? unless you literally start your g'quan right forward on the edge of your deploment zone in a scenario starting 24" apart. it cant therefore you should get at least one shot with that too. oh and if it does APTE right towards you chances are its in secondary range.

basically changing it down to 12" will change the way a WS plays, it cannot attack every turn unless it wants return fire, which cant be said for the current WS. it also becomes more vulnerable to fighters as it has to get closer to its target therefore usually coming within fighter range.
also for multiple WSs as someone mentioned having to come in closer means more bunching up making them vulnerable to e-mines.

 

[Foxmeister]

how does a WS get out of range/arc on the 1st turn of a 30" beam? unless you literally start your g'quan right forward on the edge of your deploment zone in a scenario starting 24" apart.

Given it's a boresight weapon, exceedingly easily if the ISA player wins initiative! Plus, with the WS manouverability, it can simply decide not to close and move away until the conditions are more favourable. Not that you'd ever take a G'Quan if you know you're facing an ISA fleet anyway.....


Regards,

Dave

 

[katadder]

well you can always TTT now and 30" means alot of moving away.
narn and ISA have the same init anyway so its evens on who wins it unless they bring a command gunship now or an ally. in which case ask to use my N'toth perhaps i should do an S&P article for that ship.

 

[Rawwar]

Well I'm gonna finish my coffee then I'm off round to Dans to give it a go.

So you want me to kill some Ashintas and a G'Quan. Any other requests before I go?

If it all goes wrong some White Stars get to die, win win win for me.

 

[Foxmeister]

basically changing it down to 12" will change the way a WS plays, it cannot attack every turn unless it wants return fire, which cant be said for the current WS. it also becomes more vulnerable to fighters as it has to get closer to its target therefore usually coming within fighter range.

Against certain opponents, yes, but not against the rest where it can employ identical tactics to those it would have used previously anyway with absolutely no detrimental effects. As to fighters, well naturally the ISA player will have taken the obligatory Dag'Kar as an ally so have their own anti-fighter shield too!

Regards,

Dave

 

[katadder]

cant use the same tactics as now. harder to get in range and not be fired at in return. harder to stay in range and not be fired at against pretty much anyone.
cannot dance around the outsides with long range beam staying out of range of everything and having the choice of multiple targets if the 1st one goes boom.
this last is a major point as now you know which ships the WSs are going after so use it 1st. currently they have alot more flexibility of targets, 12" range will cut this down significantly unles your fleet is bunched.

 

[Foxmeister]

currently they have alot more flexibility of targets.

Which is another reason why they should have been boresighted in the first place.......

I do sincerely hope that if this variant does get serious consideration (and right now I prefer the -1 AD), it isn't with the extra 2HPs that it has at present, because that just makes a bad solution worse IMHO!

Regards,

Dave

 

[katadder]

i wouldnt put the extra damag on, in fact when I put it to matt i didnt even mention it.

and i agree they should be boresight but range 10 or 12 can have a similar effect. my vote is range 10 same as pulsars atm, this means range 8 people actually have to move and do stuff.
and most races have range 10 secondaries too (i am also an advocate of range 10 pulse on battleships plus in the narn fleet)

 

[Foxmeister]

I could live with 10" simply because it does bring the WS into secondary range for more races. I'd prefer to see 8" on at least one of the weapons though, but it definitely looks like I'm in the minority on that one!

Of course, this entire discussion will turn out to be moot if Matt doesn't like the idea!

Regards,

Dave

 

[Rawwar]

Well We could up the Narn secondary's to 10" and playtest your 10" weapons on the White Stars if you're interested.

 

[Foxmeister]

Well We could up the Narn secondary's to 10" and playtest your 10" weapons on the White Stars if you're interested.

Ok, going O/T but the trouble with that is that certain Narn ships really don't require it.

Take a T'Rakk or Var'Nic for example - they have plenty of speed and manoeuverability and can bring their 8" secondaries into the fray.

It's ships like the G'Quan where it's really required - as a rule of thumb I'd say ships with 1/45 could do with the increased secondaries (obvious exceptions being the Ka'Toc and Ka'Tan).

Regards,

Dave

 

[Rawwar]

Narn secondary's will do nothing whatever their range so I'm not worried.

Sees you later off to see if I can get some White Stars killed. :twisted: