Problems with nebulas in Traveller

[F33D]

It is not your opinion that rubs me the wrong way, it is your insistence that your opinion is fact while other opinions are wrong that bothers me.

That gravitational force felt within nebula we have observed is LESS than a ship would experience inside of our solar system (while outside any of its bodies 100D limit) is NOT opinion. It is fact. It is FACT you are having problems with.

 

[Condottiere]

In my opinion, the reason why it matters is because their gravitational fields can influence the hyper dimensions(s).

They are like rocks, reefs, shoals, shallows that form navigational hazards.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

In my opinion, the reason why it matters is because their gravitational fields can influence the hyper dimensions(s).

They are like rocks, reefs, shoals, shallows that form navigational hazards.

A gravity field in two dimensions looks like this:

An object in a higher dimension would be above or below the plane of this gravity field. Seems to me the rules would state that this gravity field only influences where a star ship can appear in normal space after falling out of jump space, it can't appear in the middle of this gravitational depression, only at the edge. If the starship was going somewhere else, and this gravitational well would be in the way if the ship traveled in normal space, it should not present an obstacle to a ship traveling through a higher dimension, as through that higher dimension is a shortcut as in this diagram.

For example, in the diagram above the U-shaped plane is representative of our universe. We don't know what our three-dimensional universe looks like in a higher dimension. This diagram is drawn with our 3-d universe as a 2-d plane, so we can picture something that is a higher dimension. This is just an example of one of the infinite shapes that it could look like when it is represented as a plane. On this plane, the planet Earth and the star Vega are 26 light years apart.

 

[Condottiere]

Assuming that gravitation is a universal force (at least in our universe), it may express itself similarly across the dimensions, and may be fixed in place, in that's it's anchored to a gravitational focus, because dimensions are just layers in the universe, and that transitioning to jumpspace could mean there is no physical interaction with realspace, but still interacts with universal forces.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

Assuming that gravitation is a universal force (at least in our universe), it may express itself similarly across the dimensions, and may be fixed in place, in that's it's anchored to a gravitational focus, because dimensions are just layers in the universe, and that transitioning to jumpspace could mean there is no physical interaction with realspace, but still interacts with universal forces.

I think gravity largely follows the 3 dimensions we are familiar with and doesn't space much. If it does go into higher dimensons, those dimensions are very small, because on the macroscale gravity follows the inverse squared law, if it went into hyperspace on a macroscale, it would follow an inverse cube law. So largely if you travel into a higher dimensional space, you get away from 3 dimensional gravity fields until you reenter normal space, The 100 diameter limit only affects where you can enter into and arrive from jump space, that is how I interpret it. Because Jump Space is just a shortcut through higher space, not a parallel dimension where you can travel faster than the speed of light. Now if it was warp drive, that would be different.

 

[Condottiere]

Gravitation may remain more or less constant in the hyper dimension, or in proportion.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

Gravitation may remain more or less constant in the hyper dimension, or in proportion.

Is the Jump Drive a warp Drive? You know the time spent in jump space is about a week no matter what. So lets say you are doing a Jump-2, yet at 1 parsec between yourself and your destination, is a massive star directly in your path, so if you make that 2-parsec jump, do you arrive at the 100-diameter limit of that star 3.5 days later?

 

[F33D]

Assuming that gravitation is a universal force (at least in our universe),

As tested, gravity is known to be the effect upon objects in real space due to the curvature of space produced by mass in this space. Thus, there is no way to know if it would effect different "dimensions" or spaces other than where the masses are that cause the curvature.

 

[Condottiere]

I actually wouldn't know either.

I'm guessing that based on the fact that jump drives are based on our understanding of gravitation technology, that depending on the size of hole the starship punches into the hyperdrive dimension is the distance it carries the ship forward.

Since it required gravitation technology to function, and that gravitation focii effect where transitions can take place, and even seem to distort actual transitions to the point of abrupt exits and misjumps.

 

[Reynard]

"so if you make that 2-parsec jump, do you arrive at the 100-diameter limit of that star 3.5 days later?"

The point of having an expensive ship's computer with an equally expensive Jump control program plus a well trained astrogator is to plot a course weaving around any suns and known system objects to place you >this< close to your target 100d exit. If you were to fly past an intervening star or even a gas giant, it's time to space the astrogator along with the computer.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

"so if you make that 2-parsec jump, do you arrive at the 100-diameter limit of that star 3.5 days later?"

The point of having an expensive ship's computer with an equally expensive Jump control program plus a well trained astrogator is to plot a course weaving around any suns and known system objects to place you >this< close to your target 100d exit. If you were to fly past an intervening star or even a gas giant, it's time to space the astrogator along with the computer.

Why, if you could arrive there in half the time that you otherwise could with a normal jump that is definitely a plus! Lets say you wanted to go to that massive star that was only 1 parsec away, so you plot a jump that is twice as par past that star, knowing your ship would materialize in half a standard week at the 100 diameter limit, then you say, "Oh darn, we misjumped again!"

 

[simonh]

It's been established in previous canon that jump shadowing and jump masking do apply, at least it seems in the OTU, so massive objects between your point of origin and point of destination in real space can block jump travel.

I don't really care about what jump space is and exactly what it's higher dimensional nature is because trying to pin that down is only going to lead to madness. It's not a real thing and can't be integrated logically into our understanding of the actual universe. Any attempt to do so completely is bound to turn up all sorts of contradictions and problems because it's bound to be fundamentally contradictory to some aspects of real physics. So long as the in-game rules are clear and reasonably consistent, it's all god as far as I'm concerned.

However I'll just point out that gravity absolutely is not bound only to the three spacial dimensions, it also extends into the dimension of time and gravitation does affect the flow of time. Bypassing a gravity well in the dimension of time (go through that part of space before or after the body occupied it) is not different conceptually from bypassing the object in any of the three physical dimensions. So it would be in any other dimension. The object would be an obstacle for some trajectories through that dimension and not in others. It's easy to over-think these things.

Simon Hibbs

 

[Reynard]

If you can purposely misjump in order to get a time cheat by plotting a course to pass next to your actual destination then the rules of Traveller would have done so as part of canon somewhere in it's 40 year history. There is none. At best it suggests something really BAD happens such as a fatal misjump (misjumps are never a good thing). People probably have attempted it and are never heard from again and there comes the legend of Ravenous Jumpspace Whales.

 

[simonh]

If you can purposely misjump in order to get a time cheat by plotting a course to pass next to your actual destination then the rules of Traveller would have done so as part of canon somewhere in it's 40 year history. There is none. At best it suggests something really BAD happens such as a fatal misjump (misjumps are never a good thing). People probably have attempted it and are never heard from again and there comes the legend of Ravenous Jumpspace Whales.

I agree there's no way this is a shortcut to quicker jumps. That's just not how jump works IMHO, I think you just misjump as normal.

I imagine it might be some kind of quantum effect. The presence of objects along or near a jump trajectory might interfere with the jump according to some nondeterministic quantum probability function, increasing the potential for a misjump. The misjump itself is a quantum probability function that precipitates the ship into real space with a much broader spread of possibilities. Jump calculations are about calculating and constraining the parameters of the quantum probability function of the jump to ensure a maximum probability of precipitating out of jump space at the desired point and time.

Simon Hibbs

 

[Condottiere]

I think that with enough energy, you could probably make a stable jump much closer to a gravitational focus than OHDE (one hundred diameters equivalent).

Anything that pulls you unexpectedly, or in this case expectedly, out of hyperspace has got be considered catastrophic, though it could range from being grounded in the shallows, to hitting a cliff.

 

[F33D]

However I'll just point out that gravity absolutely is not bound only to the three spacial dimensions, it also extends into the dimension of time and gravitation does affect the flow of time.

Yes. The deeper in a grav well you go, the slower time goes. This is the effect of acceleration experienced. The same effect as when an object gains speed through thrust and experiences acceleration. A few years ago NASA found that it is only acceleration that causes it. Two objects going the same speed but experiencing different accel have two different flow rates of time.

 

[Reynard]

'The misjump itself is a quantum probability function that precipitates the ship into real space with a much broader spread of possibilities.'


"Five to one against and falling..." she said, "four to one against and falling...three to one...two...one...probability factor of one to one...we have normality, I repeat we have normality."

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

Another idea is a psychoportive drive, the power most likely to develop this would be the Zhodani, since they have a lot of people with psionics. The psychoportive drive basically amplifies a psion's teleport ability allowing him to teleport himself and perhaps a small starship a greater distance than the teleport ability normally allows. Imagine what the Imperium would do if they ever found out the Zhodani were working on such a project.

 

[Reynard]

They'll need a lot of Spice to make it work and there's only one source.

 

[Condottiere]

A'rack: the dessert planet.