Problems with deckplans (again... maybe)

[zero]

After completing my deckplan of the Zero-class Orbital (with a nice 0.16G generating Spin Hab), I realised when blasting through space with the Reaction Drive that it would be generating Gs pointed down towards the Drives, meaning the birds-eye view of the deckplan ceilings would turn into a fourth wall for all the rooms.

For things like the bridge and engineering which would have gimballed stations and ladders placed within I didnt worry about.

What I am worried about is the Briefing Room placed within the front end of the ship, basically a long rectangular room with a table and chairs in the middle.

I wondered rather than have a table instead it would have gimballed chairs arranged to face each other, so the thrust wouldnt really affect the room so much.

I also played with the idea of the front of the ship (includes the Bridge with Computer and Electronics in an off-room, Briefing Room, Weapons Control Room and some Cargo Space) being gyroscoped and moving so the ceiling on the deckplan acts as the ceiling all the time, but decided against it due to complexity and also that the viewports for the bridge and weapons control would move around and screw up calculations to targets.

So, I'll probably remove the table and keep the Briefing Room to gimballed chairs (four of them, one for each wall) and possibly a fold-away table that can be turned around and goes neatly into a wall-panel.

Any ideas how to get round this sucky thing called gravity and make a functional briefing room for the differing Gs? (Basically pointing downwards to the Drives and Zero-G?)

I'm also toying with the idea that the room shown on the deckplan is the one used, but it is actually turned over to show the insides, when in actuality, what should be shown on the deckplan is the fourth wall... ugh, is there any gravitic compensators around in TL 9? :roll:

 

[rust]

There are a few real world research ships which travel like normal ships,
but then are turned ninety degrees into a "tower" position for their actual
research operation. The crews just "re-furniture" the rooms whenever the
ship changes its orientation, removing the furniture from what has now be-
come a wall and putting it on what has now become the floor, and it takes
just a few minutes - and could take much less time in zero-g, where the
stuff would be less heavy. With this in mind, I would not spend much time
on searching for high tech solutions for problems which can be solved ea-
sily in a low tech way, with a few minutes of manual labour.

As for the deckplans, I would just decide which orientation of the ship is
the more common one, and use that for the deckplan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RP_FLIP

 

[DFW]

For the briefing room there is a simple solution. Design it for use when there is thrust. For zero G it doesn't matter what the orientation is as you float anyway. As long as the thrust is always one direction, you don't need gimbaled furniture

 

[phavoc]

Also think about the fact that you'll be able to retract some things into the walls - so when under thrust everything is on the 'floor', but when in zero G you may have it somewhere else.

But essentially you really only need to concern yourself with being under thrust. When you are in zero-g it doesn't matter because you have no gravitic frame of reference. For people used to zero-g they get used to the difference in where things are and just accept it. It will only be disorienting to those that are not zero-g experienced.

 

[zero]

I got thinking after rust's comments, which made alot of sense (as does DFWs and phavocs, of course - but Ive only just seen those ).

After looking again at the Cstars deckplans (which have designed it like a bigger version of my own - strange: I used 8 squares for the 4 dtons, theirs is 8 squares and 4 halfs - 5 dtons, but the thing should be 4 :? ) it might look like the ships have deckplanned a birdseye view as they have the look of VTOL jets for their ships, even though Engineering stays at the bottom of the plan.

Just a theory, if the Reaction Drives were tilted to not point straight down but instead were tilted a little to the ship's bellies or even directionally controlled, that would solve the issue of thrust-controlled G, wouldnt it?
It would also explain how a ship might move so spry in space (my own orbital does have Evade/1 software).

Opinions?

 

[DFW]

Just a theory, if the Reaction Drives were tilted to not point straight down but instead were tilted a little to the ship's bellies or even directionally controlled, that would solve the issue of thrust-controlled G, wouldnt it? It would also explain how a ship might move so spry in space (my own orbital does have Evade/1 software).

Opinions?

No. If you thrust off center for more than a few seconds you will start spinning around the ships center of gravity. If rocket shaped it will tumble end over end. They way it would be designed is with attitude control thrusters that would point the nose in the direction desired while the main engines push it.

 

[DFW]

zero, here is a PC version of the first video game created (early 60's) Space Wars
.
http://www.digisys.net/users/cogs/sw101.zip (works on windows)

Check momentum & wrap in the settings. It is 2 player only but gives a feel for movement in space.

 

[zero]

Ok, attitude control thrusters on the ship, check. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but that wont really change the G on ship (unless there are quite a few around the desired area, perhaps?), will it?

The shape of the ship btw is a bridge section with cargo space kept in chunky wing-formations on either side, a small central bridging area (4.5 metres long) where the Spin Hab shafts and pods jet out from, and then a large engineering section, made wide due to cargo and fuel space, putting it into a kinda box shape.

So, its not quite a rocket shape and its not designed to enter an atmosphere (though it is standard rather than distributed incase of emergency), as it'd burn up.

 

[rust]

Ok, attitude control thrusters on the ship, check. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but that wont really change the G on ship (unless there are quite a few around the desired area, perhaps?), will it?

Without gravitics technlogy, G felt inside the ship depends entirely on the
direction in which the ship accelerates or decelerates and on the amount
of this acceleration or deceleration. If you use different thrusters accele-
rating or decelerating the ship in different directions at the same time,
the combined vector of this acceleration or deceleration determines where
the ship moves and how G is felt within the ship.

 

[DFW]

Ok, attitude control thrusters on the ship, check. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but that wont really change the G on ship (unless there are quite a few around the desired area, perhaps?), will it?

As you re-point the nose you will feel a tug in the opposite direction for only as long as you are re-pointing. Once you stop rotating it goes away. There is no way to avoid that without artificial grav.

A close analogy is when you are speeding down a straight road and quickly change lanes. During the lane change you feel a side pull. As soon as you are in the new lane, it stops.

 

[GJD]

Depends on how your ships travel, which then sort of depends on what you do with spin habs.

If you burn at the start of a trip and then coast all the way until you get where you are going, there won't be any drive related G's during the trip, so you need spin habs to generate gravity.

However, if you have enough reaction mass, or a magical remass independent thrust system, that you can thrust for the duration of the trip (accellerate half way, flip over, decelereate the rest of the way) then the thrust of your ship will be generating gravity for you, so you can design the ship as a tail sitter, with the decks stacked on top of each other with the drives "pushing" the decks against the crew to provide gravity.

G.

 

[zero]

The ship basically has Reaction Drives at the bottom, so it is like a finger pointed up, with its spin hab (when active in the coasting time, no more than 3 days generally) going like a top rotor on a helicopter around its middle area.
Thats the best way to describe it.

It accelerates at 1G for just over 17 minutes before it reaches the Transit point, then the Transit-Drive kicks in accelerating the ship whilst everyone is in Grav-couches for an increasing amount for 5 and half days, then it coasts and the crew can get out the couches and have a little wander about and rejig courses if needed, then back to the Grav-couches for deccel for 5.5 days and then back out again for a 17+ minute deccel at 1G to their target planet's orbit.

In essence, if it could land (it never does), it would function as a tail-lander. I realise this means the rooms as shown on the deckplan are effectively stacked ontop of each other if the ship was real.

What I would like solved is how to make the Briefing Room, set out in belly-lander position on deckplans (its the same for all Cstars ships with them), able to be used by a tail-lander undergoing 1G. Zero-G is easy enough to remedy.

I was thinking of bunked seats, but I might just handwave the whole thing as its getting hard to justify.

 

[rust]

What I would like solved is how to make the Briefing Room, set out in belly-lander position on deckplans (its the same for all Cstars ships with them), able to be used by a tail-lander undergoing 1G. Zero-G is easy enough to remedy.

If it is big enough, you can divide it into two rooms by inserting a deck
(floor of the "upper" / bow-wards room and ceiling of the "lower" / drive-
wards room) and use these two rooms as smaller briefing (or whatever)
rooms. Just make sure there are ways to enter the rooms (I once desig-
ned a ship with an inaccessible room ...).

 

[DFW]

then the Transit-Drive kicks in accelerating the ship whilst everyone is in Grav-couches for an increasing amount for 5 and half days,

What's a Grav-couch? Some kind of anti-grav capsule?

 

[zero]

A Grav-Couch is used by everyone onboard when the Transit Drive is about to activate. They protect that person from the acceleration or decceleration caused by Transit Drive that accelerates to 0.005% the speed of light in the space of seven days (as the T-Drive does this, all ship systems are down, including the Reaction Drives, until the T-Drive stops -its also powered by its own energy, not the power plant once active. This type of thing is what Astrogation rolls are needed for in Cstars).

It needs gravity-gel to be used alongside it to function, this gel is what cushions the human body against the intense force described above. When a person enters the Grav-couch, the 1st part of the gel, a greenish fluid enters the couch and makes the body inside bouyant, floating to the middle.
Once filled, the 2nd part, a powder is introduced which turns this fluid into a gel. As people tend to be in a Grav-couch for 5.5 - 7 days at a time, they are sedated before entry into the couch and sustained in a coma-like dream-state during this time.
When ready to exit once the Transit Drive switches systems back over to the ship's Power plant, a third part, a fluid, is introduced to the couch which liquidises the gel into a blue glop, the couch then drains allowing the person to exit.

Or... just watch Event Horizon, the Grav-couches they use function exactly the same

 

[phavoc]

Think of the old tail-landers from the 50s and 60s pulp fiction novels and sci-fi shows. That would suit your needs perfectly. Thrust is always from the rear, so if you align your deck plates towards your engine deck the 'floors' will always be in the right place when you are under acceleration. You won't even need gimbals since I doubt you'll have your thrust on as you pivot (well, not main engines) on your attitude thrusters.

 

[DFW]

It needs gravity-gel to be used alongside it to function, this gel is what cushions the human body against the intense force described above. ...

Oh, I thought it was some plausible new tech. It is imaginative though.

 

[zero]

Ok, so I will establish this ship is much like a tail-lander now, it just makes things easier.

From the deckplan, I dont have any worries when its under Zero-G in the three days of coasting, though there is a magnetic floor-plate mechanic like in Dead Space, so I might be able to integrate that into the fluff of the ship somehow.

To be fair, that floor plate mechanic makes the point of thrust a bit moot (as it also pulls on fibres in the spacer's clothing the only way it wouldnt work is if theyre buck naked), its not proper gravity (for instance throwing an apple will make it fall in a different direction to percieved Gs) but with some safety precautions in place it does allow people to walk and do jobs on the walls and ceiling of the ship (again like in Dead Space).

I really cant be bothered to screw around too much with the deckplan and make it too different to the ones established in Cstars, so I'll go with that for now, with a tail-lander set-up for things not weirdly placed like the briefing room, of course :lol:

As an aside, DFW, could you expand on your opinions on the Grav-couches, your choice of words intrigued me Also, seen Event Horizon? It starts kinda hard scifi but goes light when they reach the title ship.

 

[DFW]

I just meant that being suspended in fluid doesn't negate acceleration forces on a body. You'd still die from too many G's for too long a time period.

 

[rust]

I just meant that being suspended in fluid doesn't negate acceleration forces on a body.

In fact, it can even make things worse. The fluid "above" the suspended
body has mass, and with acceleration this mass exerts increasing pressu-
re on the body "below" it. Depending on the amount and density of the
fluid, this can cause more damage than the suspension in fluid is inten-
ded to prevent.