Print Quality of Traveller Rulebook

[danbuter]

How much did I spend for Gurps Traveller? HUNDREDS of dollars. Core rulebooks plus a ton of supplements. And I like it, so no big deal. But really, MongTraveller is a great deal, even if you are foolish enough to actually pay cover price.

 

[serene_muse]

Can people stop making excuses for Mongoose?

(shrugs) Don't have the core book yet, and I certainly wasn't pleased with the first printing of Conan OGL & haven't bought anything by Mongoose since, but I assume that's a very dead horse here by now. A better comparison by the OP would have been between GT: Interstellar Wars and Mongoose Traveller is all. Same price, both Traveller books.

As for GT, I really like Interstellar Wars and incorporate aspects from it into any Traveller game I run, regardless of system I use (which has been several). Good GT books are useful for any Traveller campaign and the 3e ones are usually are on sale. 8)

 

[Chernobyl]

The binding _is_ stitched.

And quite sturdy, too, compared to First Printing of GURPS 4e Core Rulebooks, which are not only not sewn but badly glued.

I also think that using recycled paper is great! I find the GURPS paper a little too glossy, personally.

Phil

have to agree - and as as much as I like the gurps books, the paper is also too thin.
Chern

 

[-Daniel-]

Having worked in the printing industry for many years I have to agree, Mongoose has nothing to be sorry for and the fans need not try and make excuses for them.

mRgUnN clearly has bought into some common myths about paper and what makes "good" or "bad" paper. This book, while not as fine a paper as some top rate publications, is not the bottom grade or weight wise.

Daniel

 

[weasel_fierce]

Its hard to compare prices. The two GURPS core books will let you do more gaming than twice the same value of books from another company (and SJG did replace the damaged 1st printings for free)

For what its worth though, I like the look of the 'goose's Traveller book. It looks like a Traveller book.

 

[WhiteWolf]

For the price, Mongoose could have found a perfectly good recycled coated paper and printed this in color, IMHO, this book is worth closer to $24.95 or $29.95 not $39.95.

Something you might find interesting. . .

If we had printed this book seven years ago, it would indeed be $29.95. However, the Dollar has devalued to the point whereby $10 has effectively been added to the price.

Basically, the Dollar is not worth what it once was, and you will see from companies outside the US increase in price.

That is true, and it is also a very sound argument for a PDF version at a cheaper price. :shock:

 

[WhiteWolf]

I like black and white. I like not having images under the text. I like the focus being on the writing. I often play with oblique lighting (sun between horizon and 30° above), and glossy paper becomes hard to read in such light.
.

Oh boy do I agree with that lot. Plus the style is very classically Traveller and so fits the cover design theme.

I would have preferred the small books like the classic Traveller. I don't like reading the 8.5 x 11 inch pages of a rule book (though I will admit the Traveller one, due to the low number of pages, is easier to handle). I very much enjoyed the small compact style of the classic Traveller books, and they were a lot easier to carry around and read when I had spare time.

 

[WhiteWolf]

Having worked in the printing industry for many years I have to agree, Mongoose has nothing to be sorry for and the fans need not try and make excuses for them.

mRgUnN clearly has bought into some common myths about paper and what makes "good" or "bad" paper. This book, while not as fine a paper as some top rate publications, is not the bottom grade or weight wise.

Daniel

The big problem I have with the Mongoose Traveller book is the text from the opposit page BLEEDS through (and I don't like the 8.5 x 11 inch book prints ). And honestly I think this is the biggest argument every one is making regarding the book. The outside hard cover is very nice and glossy, the binding is stitched, so over all the book is nice; but the pages are too thin (if that is the right description) and that brings the quality down a lot.

It doesn't take a person with any kind of printing experience to see this.

 

[-Daniel-]

The big problem I have with the Mongoose Traveller book is the text from the opposit page BLEEDS through (and I don't like the 8.5 x 11 inch book prints ). And honestly I think this is the biggest argument every one is making regarding the book. The outside hard cover is very nice and glossy, the binding is stitched, so over all the book is nice; but the pages are too thin (if that is the right description) and that brings the quality down a lot.

It doesn't take a person with any kind of printing experience to see this.

The opacity of the paper is a factor in judging a papers grade and quality, however I can show you fine papers with a low opacity and some #3 or #4 grade papers (think lower grade) that is very opaque.

For you to say you wish the paper had a better opacity is a valid observation. But to say they used “bad” paper might not be a valid conclusion. Paper is judged on many things. Its brightness, color cast, bust strength, opacity, pick resistance, and ink affinity all are taken into account.

I do agree, had they asked my opinion, I would have selected a slightly more opaque paper knowing I was printing B/W on both sides of the sheet. But again Mongoose does not need anyone to make up excuses for them. This is not a poor product in my opinion.

Daniel

 

[mRgUnN]

Daniel:

I am admittedly no, "paper expert", and I may be confusing grade with quality. Regardless, I still feel the book was overpriced at USD 35.95 for 185 pages of black and white recycled paper. I used the GURPS Space book example, only because I purchased it on the same day. GURPS Space had 240 full colour pages and cost 5 bucks less, USD 34.95.

Ad hominem replies by fan boys making excuses for the company, do not sway or change my opinion about the Traveller book's pricing or poor materials quality; especially when my concerns were presented in a non-hostile and thoughtful way.

Further, I do not appreciate the forum administrator apparently excising my counter's to their nonsensical replies without explanation, i.e. normal inflation rates, not exchange rates are responsible for product price rises from 2001-2008; the book was printed in the USA, so the exchange rate actually makes it cheaper to print the book here than in the UK.

The bottom line; as a customer, I do not feel I got proper value for my money, and I wanted to let Mongoose know why.


Still disappointed,

mRgUnN

 

[MongooseMatt]

the book was printed in the USA, so the exchange rate actually makes it cheaper to print the book here than in the UK.

But the writers, editors and support staff are all UK-based, with UK wages. We have not changed the Sterling pricing for books like this in 7 years. What you are seeing is the effect of the Dollar's fall.

I'll put it another way. If this book had been released seven years ago, it would have been released for $29.95. Those extra ten Dollars are all due to currency changes.

 

[mRgUnN]

Matt:

Nice of you to reply, not sure why we are both up so early/late. I did a review of exchange rates over the last seven years USD vs GBP. Using 90 data points, the average monthly exchange for 12 months of each year, 2001 - 1Q08-2Q08 shows a $0.20 decline in the value of the USD in favor of the GPB.

2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 1Q08-2Q08
$0.69 $0.67 $0.61 $0.55 $0.55 $0.54 $0.50 $0.51

Ergo 10K GBP in 2007 is actually worth more dollars than in 2001.
$16,900.00 - $15,000.00 - = $1,900.00

Putting aside inflation, it is actually cheaper for a Brit to produce the book in the USA in 2008 than it was in 2001.

Certainly, I will concede that UK labor rates are higher than US labor rates, but development and production costs are two separate animals. Because of exchange rates USA printing BMC costs should have actually gone down. Now, the real question is; if it is cheaper to produce, but my sales are in cheaper dollars and I have to convert those back in to more valuable pounds, am I making less profit?

I need some accounting 101 to clear up my confusion; if production costs are paid for in the more valuable GBP, but the product was sold for the less valuable USD, how is the poor exchange rate impacting the book's profitability and not inflation?

Thanks,

mRgUnN

 

[MongooseMatt]

Certainly, I will concede that UK labor rates are higher than US labor rates, but development and production costs are two separate animals.

Well, not really, as they both have to be paid for from one source (sales of books).

I need some accounting 101 to clear up my confusion; if production costs are paid for in the more valuable GBP, but the product was sold for the less valuable USD, how is the poor exchange rate impacting the book's profitability and not inflation?

When we started Mongoose, the exchange rate was something like 1.44 (we'll call it 1.5). Today, you might as well divide a Dollar price by two to get Sterling.

So, if a book is £20 here in the UK, in the past we would have multiplied that by 1.5 to get $30 ($29.95). Today, multiply it by two to get $39.95.

But that is not really what you are asking. . .

In producing Traveller, the actual printing costs were the smallest part of the total costs. In a way, it does not matter where it is printed (within reason, we could have gone to the Far East for cheaper printing, or we could have printed it in the UK if we were feeling like throwing away any chance of profit. . .), as most of the costs that have to be recovered were spent long before it saw a whiff of paper.

Putting it another way. . .

We price books at a level that a) we feel is reasonable to the end customer and b) will allow us to stay in business and so produce the next book people want to see. £15 (or $30) is far too little for a book of this nature. We have supported our US customers and their currency for a long time (much to the chagrin of those in the UK!), but there comes a point when it is no longer sustainable.

 

[IanBruntlett]

Hi,

I bought the Traveller core guide here in the UK for £20 - not cheap but I think well worth it.

I was more than happy with the quality of the writing and printing. So I bought the core rules twice - because most of my friends are casual gamers.

TTFN

Ian

 

[-Daniel-]

No one is forcing you to buy the books, so please quit whining about it.

You may wish to re-read Ian's post and then edit your post. He was saying it was good and that because it was good he bought a second copy for his friends to use. He was not Whining in any way.

Daniel