Poll Question. Is this skill a trade or an art skill?

[DeadMike]

Would you classify Jeweler as a trade skill or an art skill? It could really fall into either, though I am leaning towards art since creating fine jewelry really is an art. Although a jeweler is a tradesman. Which do you think??

 

[rust]

I think it would depend on the jeweller.

In German there is a distinction between a Handwerker (craftsman), a
Kunsthandwerker (the English term could be artisan, I think) and a Künst-
ler (artist), and depending on his education (apprentice for craftsman and
artisan, art school for artist), the degree of his skill and the his "art sen-
se" (appreciation of beauty, originality, etc.) a jeweller could belong to
any of the three groups.

He could just copy traditional designs with traditional techniques and mate-
rials, making him a craftsman, or he could invent new and original designs
and techniques for new materials, making him an artist, or he could be in
between, as an artisan (I really hope that word does not mean something
else).

 

[Lord High Munchkin]

Technically, looking up in my dictionary of artistic terms, I would say an "art", but not a "fine art" (there being considered only 5 of those).

Making a living from artistic trade doesn't count as an art.

 

[Treebore]

From the perspective of being a jeweler who made customized high end pieces of jewelry for 10 years, which included carving the wax, making the molds, casting the jewelry, cutting or cabbing the gemstones, trimming, polishing, etc... that part is very much "art".

A craftsman Jeweler would be someone who takes pre made parts and pre cut or cabbed stones, and assembles them into assembled final pieces.

So if you want to be a "fine" jeweler you have to be an artist as well as a craftsman.

So if your talking a jeweler you would be most likely to find in a Mall, and most stand alone stores, to be honest, your talking craftsman. Someone who can make jewelry from scratch is an artist.

Even though I have met several people who could take pre made pieces and assemble them in very original and artistic ways, so there is a bit of a grey area to defining it, like most job skills.

 

[Treebore]

Making a living from artistic trade doesn't count as an art.

It does if your the one who made the artistic pieces being sold, and I know of plenty of people who do just that. Heck, I did that.

 

[Lord High Munchkin]

Making a living from artistic trade doesn't count as an art.

It does if your the one who made the artistic pieces being sold, and I know of plenty of people who do just that. Heck, I did that.

Actually, as a professional portrait painter, I do.

But it's still not an art... just hard.

 

[Galadrion]

Mm... if you're creating the works, particularly if they're uniques, then it would be artistry. If you're making a living dealing in them, that's a trade. So yes, Jeweler can be a specialty of both Art and Trade, and would represent different activities depending upon which it was a specialty of. Knowing how to evaluate and market a piece does not give you any particular ability in creating it, and as for whether artists automatically have any head for the business side of it... well, there's a reason "starving artist" is a cliche.

 

[Treebore]

Making a living from artistic trade doesn't count as an art.

It does if your the one who made the artistic pieces being sold, and I know of plenty of people who do just that. Heck, I did that.

Actually, as a professional portrait painter, I do.

But it's still not an art... just hard.

Yeah, the trade part can be hard, which is why I only did custom designs, my customers searched me out. Which also meant they had money to burn, so rarely had a problem with my pricing.

 

[rust]

From my painful experience, it can be extremely difficult to define the
border between art and craft, and the result often depends on whom one
asks.

My lady restores artworks, and several times this has led to a bureaucra-
tic nightmare. Germany has different laws concerning taxes, social insu-
rance and thelike for craftsmen and for artists. Unfortunately someone
who restores art seems to fall in between the categories, what he does is
considered neither a craft (no production and sale of goods) nor an art
(no original creative works), so we had to navigate various legal loopho-
les for years until my lady finally was able to work without breaking some
regulation ...

As for jewellers, think of Faberge (the guy with the jewelry eggs ...), he is
almost always treated as an artist, rarely as a craftsman.

 

[Jame Rowe]

Jeweler qualifies as an art if you're doing it for display, i.e. making a museum piece.

It qualifies as a trade if you're doing it for retail or usage, i.e. to sell it or for someone to wear.

 

[Treebore]

Jeweler qualifies as an art if you're doing it for display, i.e. making a museum piece.

It qualifies as a trade if you're doing it for retail or usage, i.e. to sell it or for someone to wear.

Totally disagree. Jeweler is wearable art. IF you look at my Facebook page you will see a big piece of silver and turquoise jewelry I am wearing, and its art, not simple jewelry. The maker is a renowned American Indian artisan from the 1950's, from Albuquerque, New Mexico.

Standard engagement rings and wedding rings are not "art", that's standard craftsmanship, but jewelry can most definitely be art, worn or displayed.


The turquoise jewelery I have in my Facebook photo album is "craftsman" grade jewelry, not art.

My Facebook page, for those who want to see what I am talking about:

http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=100001126144875&v=wall

If you want to see my photo album I think you have to be a friend, so send a request, mentioning this Traveller thread, and I'll grant it.

 

[Klaus Kipling]

If you're designing the jewelry then it's art. If you're just manufacturing many copies of a design then it's trade.

The former goes to art college, the latter business/manufacturing (or whatnot) school.

Similarly with furniture, or other product. An iPod is not a work of art, but Jonathon Ive is an artist.

 

[Treebore]

If you're designing the jewelry then it's art. If you're just manufacturing many copies of a design then it's trade.

I can agree with that.

As the skill is written it seems to imply design and creation, so I would put the sill, as written, under art.

I mean there are "jewelers" out there, most of them in fact, who have never made a piece of jewelery from design concept to final finished piece. Most only do repairs, remounting, etc...

Very, very few are like me, expert from design to execution, plus expert at identifying gem stones, let alone also know how to cut and cab.

I only met one other person at all the shows I went to comparable to myself in the industry. Most only cut stones, or only identified stones, or only cabbed, or only cast, or only carved the wax for the molds, or only drew up design concepts, I only met one other who did everything like I did.

So a true jeweler, who does everything from beginning to end, is pretty uncommon today, if not outright rare.

 

[rust]

So a true jeweler, who does everything from beginning to end, is pretty uncommon today, if not outright rare.

I suspect that this is true for most arts and crafts nowadays. In my expe-
rience it is more often the dedicated hobbyist who takes the time (and can
afford to take it) to create something "from scratch" than the professional,
for whom "time is money".

 

[BP]

Oops - voted trade, but that doesn't really fit with the definition of Trade skills - trained in producing some useful goods or services [pg 58].


A good jeweler would be an artistic craftsman (i.e. both) by description, but the MGT skill would be an Art specialty.

Looking at Art - I would have to say that Jewelry skill is pretty akin to Sculpting (though I would call it a separate specialty and treat it as such).

I'd call it Art (Jewelry-Making).

Like with sculpting - the creative nature might or might not be limited - yet, the character still have an extreme amount of skill (and even be considered an artist). Example would be a master forger. Thus a highly skilled Art(Jewelry-Making) character can produce an exquisite piece of jewelry that has a high credit value - whether artistically and/or technically.

For purposes of task checks - higher Dex (and Edu) might indicate more of a craftsman - while higher Int (and Soc) would indicate more of an artist. I'd use the those characteristics to define the degree to which a reputation or work is described. I'd take into account both aspects when determining value of jewelry created (i.e. - bonus for artistic plus bonus for technical), ability to appraise, or reputation (known for skill and/or artistry and to what degree).

 

[Lord High Munchkin]

Actually, it's more varied than that.

Although there are only five "Fine Arts" (but luckily we are not talking about them here), a lot of other things can be considered "arts" — but the definition (if there is an agreed one!), seems to me to be that an "art" is something practised for itself, and the sheer joy of doing so. The end result might be sold, but remuneration was not the chief goal in it's manufacture.

While a trade is something done with the primary idea of sale. That's not to say it's products aren't lovely and "artistic" — they may be, but financial return was the chief motivator.

Makes sense to me.

 

[Treebore]

Well, like you imply, that does vary, and I don't think the "motivation" behind why a piece of art is even created should be considered. In fact I cannot recall anyone ever bringing up "did the artist do it for money or the sheer pleasure of it" as a factor as to whether or not to call it "art" or not.

Art either is, or it isn't. People either respond to it, or they don't.

I know I was very different compared to my counter parts in the industry. They were all about profit margins, and making them being as big a margin as possible. I was about making as beautiful a piece as possible and selling it for a reasonable profit, usually about $25/hour for my time spent, as well as material costs. Most others valued their time at $100/hour and about 5 to 10 times the costs of their raw materials.

 

[rust]

While a trade is something done with the primary idea of sale. That's not to say it's products aren't lovely and "artistic" — they may be, but financial return was the chief motivator.

I have a problem with this, because this definition would turn dozens of
undisputed artworks into trade products. Just think of Leonardo da Vinci
or Rembrandt, who quite often made their paintings on order and for the
money, not primarily because they felt any kind of urge to make these
specific paintings.

 

[Lord High Munchkin]

I know I was very different compared to my counter parts in the industry. They were all about profit margins, and making them being as big a margin as possible. I was about making as beautiful a piece as possible and selling it for a reasonable profit, usually about $25/hour for my time spent, as well as material costs. Most others valued their time at $100/hour and about 5 to 10 times the costs of their raw materials.

That's exactly my point. Your motivation was different to theirs.

 

[Lord High Munchkin]

While a trade is something done with the primary idea of sale. That's not to say it's products aren't lovely and "artistic" — they may be, but financial return was the chief motivator.

I have a problem with this, because this definition would turn dozens of
undisputed artworks into trade products. Just think of Leonardo da Vinci
or Rembrandt, who quite often made their paintings on order and for the
money, not primarily because they felt any kind of urge to make these
specific paintings.

A specific example please.