Playtest Rules -- Drakh Updates (Amu and GEG Crit Defense)

[CZuschlag]

I'm certain part of the downgrade comes from me. I've been running the Amu as Hull 4 for the longest time, because I never noticed that it was actually Hull 5 (I mentally kept it the same from 1st Ed.). I was able to use the thing like a beast -- the pulse batteries regularly ripped ships apart, and, in the middle of a fight (where it can leverage GEG best, and against the most incoming fire) was absolutely savage. It would regularly throw 8 dice of beam (in two arcs) and 20 -38 dice of twin-ap pulse, and usually got a glory shot of over 12 dice of beam and 40+ pulse dice. It was (and is) an absolute monster. Under CBD it's very, very hard to hurt; the only way it goes down is hordes upon hordes of criticals.

Under CBD with Crit Defense 4, you'll see this beastie make it to the center of the fray, and then --- holy sh*t, look out. Wowzers.

I've never lost when I've fielded it; and I've never run it at Hull 5, ever. All that time, I thought it Hull 4. Sometimes I've had to open a jump point for it to drift out through, mind you!

 

[katadder]

its speed 4 and range 20. they get hammered from range.
and if it was hull 4 it will get hammered by centauri, vree, pak, and dilgar especially if its trying to protect itself from a whole 4 crits a turn.
I for one with my drakh will never run the crit protection if its hull 4, and will never use it on the other ships due to their low damage for their level.

 

[silashand]

I've never lost when I've fielded it; and I've never run it at Hull 5, ever. All that time, I thought it Hull 4. Sometimes I've had to open a jump point for it to drift out through, mind you!

I guess it depends on who you play. Against my regular opponents I face double and triple damage weaponry almost exclusively and I've lost my carriers in one turn of firing as they do everything they can to kill it before it can launch anything. Drop the Amu to hull 4 and I can guarantee the same will happen to it, but it may take slightly longer to accomplish due to more hull points. Again, I think a double value of x/x would be more appropriate. I hardly think the Drakh would basically "Drop All Shielding" to prevent damage to critical systems. That sounds pretty stupid IYAM.

I for one with my drakh will never run the crit protection if its hull 4, and will never use it on the other ships due to their low damage for their level.

Amen, and for the exact same reasons. Long ranged weaponry and slow speed kills the Drakh now. Those ships in the fleet with high speed have very short ranged weapons. Sorry, the Crit Protection would seem a bad trade in almost all instances IYAM.

A better setup would be Crit Protection represents 1/2 the current GEG, but does not reduce it (rounding up since everything in ACtA rounds up). This would make it valuable for *all* ships in the fleet without being too powerful.

Cheers, Gary

 

[Clanger]

Keep GEG as it is and each drakh ship gets a crit protection as a seperate trait. Do not let it be an either / or stat.

And compared to some of the "new" proposed additions to some fleets this would not be OTT. Centauri Hunting Pack anyone :shock:

 

[silashand]

Keep GEG as it is and each drakh ship gets a crit protection as a seperate trait. Do not let it be an either / or stat.

Actually, I like that idea. As a separate trait it can be lost just like anything else. Much better IMO.

And compared to some of the "new" proposed additions to some fleets this would not be OTT. Centauri Hunting Pack anyone :shock:

Agreed!!! Against the fleets I face regularly I think the GEG is overrated. The Crit Protection would make it just that little bit more competitive with all the additional little enhancements coming down the pipe for other fleets. In fact, the only two downgrades I've seen so far are the G'Vrahn and the Demos (both of which needed it IMO).

Cheers, Gary

 

[Clanger]

Silashand you forgot the down grade of our beloved Amu from Hull 5 to a poxy embarassing 4.

 

[silashand]

Silashand you forgot the down grade of our beloved Amu from Hull 5 to a poxy embarassing 4.

Having b*tched about it above several times I thought that was obvious ;-). But to reiterate:

Hull 4 on an Armageddon level ship - *ANY* Armageddon level ship - is just plain wrong IMO.

Cheers, Gary

 

[Burger]

Silashand you forgot the down grade of our beloved Amu from Hull 5 to a poxy embarassing 4.

Having b*tched about it above several times I thought that was obvious ;-). But to reiterate:

Hull 4 on an Armageddon level ship - *ANY* Armageddon level ship - is just plain wrong IMO.

Cheers, Gary

All hull means, is how easy it is to cause damage to the ship. Why wouldn't an Amu, which is basically a floating city, be easy to cause damage? Sure, it takes a lot of damage to kill it... that is reflected int he number of hit points.

 

[silashand]

All hull means, is how easy it is to cause damage to the ship. Why wouldn't an Amu, which is basically a floating city, be easy to cause damage? Sure, it takes a lot of damage to kill it... that is reflected in the number of hit points.

It may be represented partially by the number of hit points, but a warship is just that, a *war* ship. The Amu is not just a floating city by any means. It is the largest, most powerful vessel they have constructed. Even if it were "just a floating city," considering that the Drakh use them in lieu of actual planetary homeworlds I would expect them to be more protected than a lowly hull 4 if/when they were to be brought to battle. With the preponderence of AP, SAP, TL weaponry out there that make a mockery of low hull values, dropping it is just plain wrong IYAM. Drop them to hull 4 and IMO they should be boosted significantly in defence and the suggested crit protection idea - even with the other suggested mods - doesn't even come close to doing that. In fact as has been pointed out it is actually worse in almost all instances. People may not like the Amu, but as it is now it's hardly broken in its given category.

Cheers, Gary

 

[Foxmeister]

In fact as has been pointed out it is actually worse in almost all instances.

I disagree with that statement. Personally, I think it's better, but what will be really telling is actually *playtesting* it which is the whole point of exercise. Anything else is mostly just a thought exercise, unless something is obviously broken which I don't believe this is.

Regards,

Dave

 

[silashand]

In fact as has been pointed out it is actually worse in almost all instances.

I disagree with that statement. Personally, I think it's better, but what will be really telling is actually *playtesting* it which is the whole point of exercise. Anything else is mostly just a thought exercise, unless something is obviously broken which I don't believe this is.

Put it this way. Drakh are my primary fleet now and I cannot imagine a time when I would prefer to use this Crit Protection rule over the existing GEG on anything but the Amu, Ma'Cu and maybe the Dra'Vash cruiser, and then only as an exceptional course of action. For *all* other Drakh ships (the majority of your fleet) what you have are generally low hull value vessels without interceptors, anti-fighter or a large number of damage points. If you forego the GEG, then you are effectively *defenseless* except on the off chance your opponent rolls a crit or two. This is against *all* attack forms. Heck, I also play Gaim and I'd just swarm the ships with normal fighter attacks (not even breaching pods or suicide craft) since I can shoot at it with impunity. Any other fighter fleet could easily do the same. Long range weaponry would kill such ships with regularlity. Playtesting is one thing, but this is a ridiculously stupid choice to make since it can't be turned on or off during the game. It's an either/or proposition and frankly, it's a bad choice no matter how you look at it.

Cheers, Gary

 

[Da Boss]

its speed 4 and range 20. they get hammered from range.
and if it was hull 4 it will get hammered by centauri, vree, pak, and dilgar especially if its trying to protect itself from a whole 4 crits a turn.
I for one with my drakh will never run the crit protection if its hull 4, and will never use it on the other ships due to their low damage for their level.

As stated against some fleets - Minbari, Vorlons, hull 4 is alomst or indeed completely irrlevant - it does give a considerable new flexibility to the Drakh.

 

[silashand]

As stated against some fleets - Minbari, Vorlons, hull 4 is alomst or indeed completely irrlevant - it does give a considerable new flexibility to the Drakh.

No, but the GEG isn't. Trading it for protection from crits against fleets with long range double/triple damage weaponry would be suicide. I still fail to see how this increases the Drakh's flexibility at all. Basically you are gaining protection from critical hits by making yourself utterly defenseless against all other attack forms. Excuse me? Dodge is nice for the raiders, but the heavy raider isn't that durable and only gets a 5+. I'm talking the rest of the fleet here.

The big problem with this new rule is that it is permanently decided at the start of the game. Make it variable during the game and maybe it would be worthwhile, but as it stands now I simply cannot envision a situation where it would be preferable to the GEG, especially when chosen before any dice have been rolled. Personally, I think the Drakh should simply get a die roll to avoid the crit altogether similar to the Ipsha war globe. Would make more sense and actually be useful IMO.

Cheers, Gary

 

[Da Boss]

hmm well I have found its often the indirect damage from mutiple dmage weapons that causes the hurt - double and triple damage crits can often cause massive damage - without even factoring in the effects.

So the smaller ships wont use it - the big uns can -and they are often the ones that we all say need the crit defense.

its flexible cos it gives you an option reduce that Vorlon / Shadow / Minbari/ White star beam by a couple of pts of damage or ignore most / all of the various crits these precise weapons will generate.

 

[CZuschlag]

Again, are you using the random terrain rules as specified in the book? If you are, then you will likely have a piece of terrain you can hide behind, be it asteroids, planets or dust; you have an initiative modifier of +6 --- you're probably going to find some terrain in one of the deployment zones somewhere.

In a standard Annihilation game, there is a 88.7% of having some terrain in your deployment zone, so you are likely set for 2 turns or so.

Also note that with the new Manoeuver to Shield, you have lots of new options for putting something else in the way, such as the rather thick Ria'Vash, or the utterly frustrating Scout!

With Manoeuver to Shield, I expect Ma'cu and Amu to be far more likely to deploy their payload effectively.

----

Da Boss:

I'm fairly certain it is always (on average) to the Drakh player's benefit to use it as crit protection against some Dilgar because of Masters of Destruction, but it'll require a lot of math to run. If there is a Garasoch, however, you just can't do it; you have no answer to fighters at all.

 

[silashand]

its flexible cos it gives you an option reduce that Vorlon / Shadow / Minbari/ White star beam by a couple of pts of damage or ignore most / all of the various crits these precise weapons will generate.

If the only ships that could use it are the big ones, and it's only really effective vs certain fleets, how is that really an advantage? Minbari and Vorlons both could then just swarm you with Nials / Vorlon fighters and any benefit gained would be lost. Since the fighters attack first there's a good chance they will drop a couple of those crit protections, thus leaving your ship still open to abuse from the big guys. Sorry, if an opponent plays intelligently they can mitigate any possible advantage this rule provides while simultaneously actually gaining in power against the Drakh.

Cheers, Gary

 

[CZuschlag]

Da Boss:

You are mostly right, I think, but I worry about the Drakh's lack of fighter defense. That first point does an awful lot of work to save you from the things you can't dogfight. An idea might be to force a choice between GEG 4 or GEG 1 + Immunity 3.

I have to test this over the board.

 

[Da Boss]

Hmm true - may be an idea -

or you could down the route of allowing the GEG to be converted into an antifighter field via a Special Action?

 

[silashand]

but I worry about the Drakh's lack of fighter defense. That first point does an awful lot of work to save you from the things you can't dogfight.

This is the main problem I have with dropping the GEG in favor of crit protection. My secondary fleet is Gaim and I know how bad fighters can be against normal fleets. Against one without *any* protection they would be sitting ducks, and I wouldn't even have to suicide them to do damage.

Cheers, Gary

 

[CZuschlag]

Da Boss:

Very cool idea, granted, but, as much as my Drakh want it, that's Out Of Scope, too. From your keys to Matt's screen, mind you .... but Out of Scope.