[[[Playtest Focus]]] Missiles II

[AnotherDilbert]

Suggested system

Launch salvo, no roll. Keep track of number of missiles
EW potentially kills some missiles, a few rolls.
PD potentially kills some missiles as per Nerhesi's system, one roll or no roll
Attack roll 2D +Smart -Evasion. 50%+10%*Effect of missiles hit (max 100%, round 50% up, 49% down), one roll
Damage roll (4D - Armour) * N, where N is # of missiles hit / 3 (round up), one roll

No modifiers for size of salvo.
No tables for damage modifications.
Attack to hit chance is somewhat similar to single shot system.
Damage is somewhat similar to single shot system.
Armor works as usual.
Works for 100t ships.
Works for 1 000 000 ships.

 

[Deldarius]

Roll damage once and multiply by number of missiles. I can guarantee that the player who roll a high damage roll and gets to multiply with 10 will not be dissatisfied.

Fully agree with that! How would you factor armour in on this system?

Multiply the armor value by the number of missiles and deduct that from the damage value.

 

[Nerhesi]

Suggested system

Launch salvo, no roll. Keep track of number of missiles
EW potentially kills some missiles, a few rolls.
PD potentially kills some missiles as per Nerhesi's system, one roll or no roll
Attack roll 2D +Smart -Evasion. 50%+10%*Effect of missiles hit (max 100%, round 50% up, 49% down), one roll
Damage roll (4D - Armour) * N, where N is # of missiles hit / 3 (round up), one roll

No modifiers for size of salvo.
No tables for damage modifications.
Attack to hit chance is somewhat similar to single shot system.
Damage is somewhat similar to single shot system.
Armor works as usual.
Works for 100t ships.
Works for 1 000 000 ships.

1)Launch Salvo - no problem.
2) EW checks every round killing Effect value in missiles - no problem.
3) PD Potentially kills missiles (either effect roll, or kills # = skill rank of gunner) - no problemo still
4) Attack roll 2D (3D with lockon boon), +smart (This is the TL difference between the higher of the (ship/missile) vs the target right?) - ok no problem.
-Evasion = So if the pilot spends thrust he applies the dodge modifier to the entire salvo though??
then determine 50% of salvo hits, +/-10% depending on positive or negative effect.
5) Damage roll formula of (4D - Armour) * N, where N is # of missiles hit / 3.

I think 5 is way too complex especially following on the heels of (4)'s calculation. Basically we've introduced 2 seperate mathematical formulas and 1 new attack role calculation roll that are specific just to missile combat.

 

[Nerhesi]

If I may propose a modification to Dilbert's system:

(No change) Launch salvo, no roll. Keep track of number of missiles
(No change) EW potentially kills some missiles, a roll per turn or no roll
(No change) PD potentially kills some missiles as per Nerhesi's system, one roll or no roll
(No Evasion here) Attack roll 2D +Smart. 50%+10%*Effect of missiles hit (max 100%, round normally to nearest missile), one roll
(New) Dodge/remove as many missiles as evade software rating + thrust spent to evade missiles this turn (no roll)
(replace damage formula with) Just roll normally for each missile that hits... subtracting armour for each missile. Just like normal damage rules!

I'm not sure why we're against rolling multiple times for missile damage. I think we need constraints and guidance from Matt here. I mean, matt's proposal (both in this thread and the previous) has us rolling for PD for EACH turret, and EW on EACH turn, then rolling TO-HIT, then rolling Damage. It's not like we're cutting down on rolls at all.

To be more accurate and to solve the armour problem, while reducing the overall rolling Matt, cut down on the non-damage rolls (PD, EW, to-hit, etc), and simply keep the multiple rolls for damage - rather than the other way around.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Basically we've introduced 2 seperate mathematical formulas and 1 new attack role calculation roll that are specific just to missile combat.

As Matt was saying earlier, why not use the same system for all attacks. It would cut down on dice rolls in all combat.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Damage: (4D - Armour) * N, where N is # of missiles hit / 3

Rephrase that to: Roll damage once, multiply by number of attacks.

The complexity is not breathtaking.

I only write in formulas because it is more compact. You are professionals, you can write it better.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

-Evasion = So if the pilot spends thrust he applies the dodge modifier to the entire salvo though??

You have hit a generic problem, see separate thread...

 

[Nerhesi]

-Evasion = So if the pilot spends thrust he applies the dodge modifier to the entire salvo though??

You have hit a generic problem, see separate thread...

It only became a problem a couple of days ago when missiles started being treated as salvos. This was was supposed to wait until high-guard mass/capital combat, where we could treat all weapons fire (e.g. 1000 beams or 1000 missiles) as salvos or barrages. Then we could establish how evasion/dodge works in THAT fleet scale combat, perhaps something like Half of (Evasion Software+Pilot Skill) ; applied to all incoming attacks.

I'll have to disagree, in that evasion was just fine prior to this. Ships with more thrust got to evade more, ships being fired at by a lot more people couldn't evade everything! great!

 

[Chas]

Hmmm... not sure things can't be simplified further:

I don't see why we necessarily have to be against a single salvo all hit or all miss roll on attack. Either the defensive maneuvers worked or they didn't. So the attack dice can be as described with dodge and evasion calculated as normal, and yes give a bonus to hit with a large salvo. The swarm of missiles come in, the bigger the swarm the less opportunity to dodge. That's the point of missiles, they can't be avoided in numbers unless you run away or have other defences such as EW or PD. The smart trait means in shorter range bands you're going to be attacked again and hit anyway. And having an all hit or all miss scenario means you can apply the smart trait properly.

Forget everything else with damage and simply have a 1 time roll = (missile type damage - AP) x number of missiles that hit. Just like we ignore the gunnery skill for missiles, ignore Effect on a missile blast. Hey, these aren't aimed with intention at weak points on a ship, they just go bang. Then if you have issues with damage, revise the weapon's damage, not muck about with everything else. As the game system is designed to work.

This way, the only thing to worry about is a bonus to hit by swarm, say +1 / 6 missiles calculated after PD have done their job.

You'll be at the mercy of the dice roll for damage, but this is supposed to be for limited numbers of attacks anyhoo...

 

[Nerhesi]

Hmmm... not sure things can't be simplified further:

I don't see why we necessarily have to be against a single salvo all hit or all miss roll on attack. Either the defensive maneuvers worked or they didn't. So the attack dice can be as described with dodge and evasion calculated as normal, and yes give a bonus to hit with a large salvo. The swarm of missiles come in, the bigger the swarm the less opportunity to dodge. That's the point of missiles, they can't be avoided in numbers unless you run away or have other defences such as EW or PD. The smart trait means in shorter range bands you're going to be attacked again and hit anyway. And having an all hit or all miss scenario means you can apply the smart trait properly.

Forget everything else with damage and simply have a 1 time roll = (missile type damage - AP) x number of missiles that hit. Just like we ignore the gunnery skill for missiles, ignore Effect on a missile blast. Hey, these aren't aimed with intention at weak points on a ship, they just go bang. Then if you have issues with damage, revise the weapon's damage, not muck about with everything else. As the game system is designed to work.

This way, the only thing to worry about is a bonus to hit by swarm, say +1 / 6 missiles calculated after PD have done their job.

You'll be at the mercy of the dice roll for damage, but this is supposed to be for limited numbers of attacks anyhoo...

Things can be simplified a lot further (we've all posed simpler solutions too...)

Can you give a quick example here? I think I see what you're saying. After PD and EW, you have one-to-hit roll with a bonus based on the number of missiles remaining. Can you play it out? I think it ends up in just 1 damage roll for all missiles though no?

 

[Chas]

It's really not that different from what AnotherDilbert and you have been stating except we don't fluff around with % or divisions of hits:

- Launch salvo, no roll. Keep track of number of missiles. Determine lock on from launch.
- EW potentially kills some missiles, a few rolls during flight turns at the discretion and ability of the target (and the fact the attacker may also be attempting to jam at the same time... EW could be quite involved)
- PD potentially kills some missiles, one roll per gunner as currently preferred for Core rules, or no roll (the ref can decide if they would prefer to just have one roll and then multiply by the number of gunners if they need to move things along if they've put up a multi-turreted ship into combat with only Core rules to work with... or otherwise do their own average)
- Attack roll 2D (with potential lock on boon) +Smart (let's assume 0 for even fight) -Evasion + bonus for salvo numbers (the bonus on salvo numbers is optional but could be important to carry through to larger combat and/or be required to balance evasion).
- Damage roll (4D - Armour) * N, where N is # of missiles hit

Yes = evasion applies to the entire salvo. The swarm of bees attack, you swerve with your high thrust reactor and they miss, but you run out of fuel and the next turn the salvo hits. We need to keep this mechanic I think. The way the mechanics work need a revisit perhaps. I have yet to actually work through it, just reasonably sure we want to keep it in one form or another

To be continued...

 

[Chas]

So looking at this further and the issue with Evasion. The current rules with 1 thrust allowing the pilot's skill to be used as Evasion against each individual attack is not balanced versus having 1 single salvo of missiles.

The simple solution would be to remove Evasion out of the roll altogether which probably wouldn't hurt. You can't dodge what is a fast smart attack, you're only dependent on how well they've homed in on you. This then would be further simplification and useful in its own right.

What I would suggest is an addition to the High Guard rules for a special dodge vs. missiles, that allows the target a -DM for every point of thrust above 10 used to dodge missiles up to a maximum of the pilot's skill level + dexterity modifier.

If you want to keep Evasion, then I would suggest keeping some manner of to hit bonus at say +1/6 missiles for large salvos to balance this.

By the way, I think removing effect from the missile damage, but multiplying by each individual missile isn't too far off something workable. You get extra damage by having 3 missiles coming out of a triple turret which vs. lasers would only see effect plus a bonus, so there's an edge there which only gets bigger vs. low armored targets, which I think is reasonably opposing option given you can lose your expensive missiles if the targets defences are too good, and remembering missiles are ammunition, not endless shot.

Need to put up some numbers…

P.S. I think everybody's on board with having some straight adjacent range straight shoot missiles which Effect and Gunner skill and Evasion could apply to. Let's call them "Firmpoint Missiles"

 

[MongooseMatt]

Missiles III has just been posted - and I think we vae almost/just about licked this!

http://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/viewtopic.php?f=149&t=118038