Planetary launch

If you could reduce the effect of gravity to zero you should be able to reach orbit without issue, even if you just go straight up without using your engines.

But it's when try to escape the planets outer gravity field is when your thrust needs to be greater than the pull of the planet. Mostly because your antigravity field has nothing or very little to psh against, so it's all on your drive.

Or at least that's how I understand the orbital mechanics of the thing. For the most part I don't think most players or refs go into that level of detail.
 
If you could reduce the effect of gravity to zero you should be able to reach orbit without issue, even if you just go straight up without using your engines.

But it's when try to escape the planets outer gravity field is when your thrust needs to be greater than the pull of the planet. Mostly because your antigravity field has nothing or very little to psh against, so it's all on your drive.

Or at least that's how I understand the orbital mechanics of the thing. For the most part I don't think most players or refs go into that level of detail.
 
Phavoc, that's the way I interpret it and has been used in other editions. Stretching it, I say the maneuver drives system also incorporate powerful contra-drive lifters for landing, takeoff and planetside maneuvering just as anti-grav vehicles do but are to weak to give the thrust needed for full space travel. It's the contra-grav that neutralizes a ship to planetary gravity just as grav plates inside ships can be kicked up to 2gs when needed.
 
It's never been quite clear in most editions as to how all this works. Vehicles are incapable of leaving low orbit if they have anti-gravity drive, but are able to maneuver in a grav field. Starships would require the ability to nullify gravity, but it's their drives that provide them their real movement needs. So any ability to maneuver in a gravity field would be, I assume, minimal. Or they would use thruster. Or perhaps in a gravity field they have weak grav "thrusters", and in space they use conventional-style thrusters (maybe minature grav-plates instead of gas-powered) since they aren't always going to be in a gravity field for them to work.
 
It is even more confusing when early Classic Traveller (CT) games such as MayDay made you adjust your ship's vector due to planetary gravity. If we are using a gravitic drive (which is what the rules now say), then you would ignore planetary gravity fields.

Even if it was some kind of thrust-based system like we have today, unless you are doing a true vertical launch, you don't need 1G of thrust for a 1G surface gravity. Airplanes take-off and fly all the time without having 1G of thrust. Most planes use the lift from their wings (or a lifting body) to help overcome gravity; so in Traveller terms, a 1G drive could still take off from a high gravity world IF it was streamlined AND the world had an Atmosphere; the density of the atmosphere woudl determine how much above the thrust of the ship you could still take off - WAY to complicated for an RPG...
 
Since High Guard is up next, consideration should be given to four or five different variants of shipboard manoeuvre drives, with a description as to how they operate.

Then give them each advantages and disadvantages in terms of price, volume, power and fuel consumption.
 
NOLATrav said:
Works for me, now my players get how a 1G trader can refuel at a 1.5G gas giant and land on its 1.5G Mainworld moon.

Gas Giants aren't actually a problem. If you go on a ballistic path skimming into the atmosphere and back out again. You don't need to overcome gravity, your momentum will do that for you and carry you back out into space. You just need to have enough thrust to balance out atmospheric resistance.

Simon Hibbs
 
hiro said:
No, Traveller is not hard sci-fi.

From what I know, the closest you can get to it in the Traveller ruleset is Zozer's excellent Orbital.

http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/109160/Orbital?src=hottest_filtered

Thanks for the mention Hiro... I agree that Traveller is not hard SF, but there is very little that is hard SF - nanites, FTL, hand lasers, and especially antigrav are 'far future'... I counted hard SF as a future that could be built today, using technology available today. Some might not call that SF at all!
 
Mithras said:
hiro said:
No, Traveller is not hard sci-fi.

From what I know, the closest you can get to it in the Traveller ruleset is Zozer's excellent Orbital.

http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/109160/Orbital?src=hottest_filtered

Thanks for the mention Hiro... I agree that Traveller is not hard SF, but there is very little that is hard SF - nanites, FTL, hand lasers, and especially antigrav are 'far future'... I counted hard SF as a future that could be built today, using technology available today. Some might not call that SF at all!

On the contrary! It very much is sci-fi, the trouble is it looks nothing like Star Wars which is of course science based!!! :mrgreen:

Perhaps we should stop using the word science in our fiction and replace it with speculative? Apparently the term is accredited to Heinlein so that could give it some traction in our community but it's hard to see it being adopted even though in theory it encapsulates science, fantasy and horror.

And Mithras, you are very welcome! Credit where credit is due!
 
CosmicGamer said:
I'm no science whiz. This is how I always thought of it, but I could be wrong.

Aerodynamics and/or constant thrust.

G force isn't everything. Some cars can produce more G-Force than some planes! If the world has an atmosphere and the ship has lift surfaces... Even if it is just a wedge body with no wings I think it produces some lift.

Speaking of cars, think of a very fast car hitting the top of a steep incline and going airborne before gravity brings it back down. Now think many, many times faster. It is 1G of constant thrust not maximum speed. Unless you have 1G of drag, I think you can use a really long "takeoff" with that constant 1G thrust building up more and more speed until you reach an escape velocity.

From what I've read this is the best answer. If force can be applied continuously you can move at any speed, no matter how slow, up. Eventually you reach a point far enough away from the center of the planet that even your low thrust is enough to overcome the gravity gradient.

The lifting body design would help, but from Classic Traveller, and all game systems for the Imperium setting since, the vast majority of ships do not have wings.

Overclocking or other ways to temporarily boost the thrust are, imo, lazy game design and lazy GMing. And it will come back and create problems. Why can't the ship do this burst of speed at other times? Where does that "extra" energy come from and can it be applied to something else? Why don't the villians chasing the players use that trick? To me it causes more problems than it solves.

Other ideas floated like not going to a heavy planet (like Terra itself) or not filling up the ship are huge GM headaches as well. Its in Imperium setting that such ships regularly visit 'heavy' worlds, and even if you're not using that setting, its in the rules. Mass isn't figured in Mongoose Traveller (but is to an extent in Classic and in GURPS) so you just can't "reduce the load" to get off the ground - the very mass of the ship is holding you back. Sure, you can handwave away the problem but again that is lazy GMing. Its sure to come up later, especially when the players are trying to outrun bad guys at some point and the GM says they have to stand and fight; the players are going to ask, rightly, why? Just say they get away - that handwave worked before, why not now?

I'm not saying you have to calculate everything out or have a degree in physics, but if you're playing a science fiction game in the first place you and your players probably want some degree of reality, or at least internal consistency. Its better to know how you think a ship lands and takes off before it becomes an issue.

So a ship can take off vertically, if it doesn't have wings, slowly, gaining speed as it climbs just because it has that much less gravity gradient to fight with each meter it climbs. It also makes a slow arch in the sky as the world rotates under it (if the world rotates). Its like the ship in the Empire Strikes Back, that huge ship taking off from Hoth after the empire invades, like a balloon being released.

For a more dramatic launch, say like the Millenium Falcon lifting off from Mos Eisley, ships have built in boosters, like attitude control jets. Since time is money to traders, and most other people, these jets would be commonly used. They have a physical fuel reserve, even if its just water converted to steam, so you know how and why it works. And thats important so when the players want to divert power to weapons later, they know they can't use the handwaved overclocking technique for the drives.
 
High Orbit Drifter said:
I'm not saying you have to calculate everything out or have a degree in physics, but if you're playing a science fiction game in the first place you and your players probably want some degree of reality, or at least internal consistency. Its better to know how you think a ship lands and takes off before it becomes an issue.

Problem is that people don't even have physics 101 as background, if you tell them that the mass pushes them away, from pushing on it during a takeoff, they are like "say what?" Easier to just skip past it.
 
dragoner said:
High Orbit Drifter said:
I'm not saying you have to calculate everything out or have a degree in physics, but if you're playing a science fiction game in the first place you and your players probably want some degree of reality, or at least internal consistency. Its better to know how you think a ship lands and takes off before it becomes an issue.

Problem is that people don't even have physics 101 as background, if you tell them that the mass pushes them away, from pushing on it during a takeoff, they are like "say what?" Easier to just skip past it.

I think you're not giving people enough credit. Sure, this is one of those "background" scenes, where it is mostly assumed what happens happens. Like "we drive to the bar"; nobody is going to want to describe the rolls and orders for driving. But if it does come up, like a dramatic escape from Mos Eisley, your players are going to want to know.
 
Condottiere said:
To reiterate, give the Order Maximum Speed, which will gain you an extra one gee in acceleration.

Is this in the new version? How long does this extra boost of speed last? Can you use it all the time? Why does my ship stats say it can go 1g when it can go 2? Can the ship go even faster if we give the order twice? What other secret things can the ship do?

This just seems like a poor game mechanic, bringing up more problems than it solves.
 
Really, get a copy of the new rules. Goes a long ways to explain things.

Once per turn, your engineer declares an Action to Overload Drive. Must make the skill check to perform or no go. The engines get a boost for the turn but suffer damage and each attempt makes it worst so it's really for emergencies.... but looks soo cool!

"Captain, I canna get another warp out a the drives!"
 
High Orbit Drifter said:
Condottiere said:
To reiterate, give the Order Maximum Speed, which will gain you an extra one gee in acceleration.

Is this in the new version? How long does this extra boost of speed last? Can you use it all the time? Why does my ship stats say it can go 1g when it can go 2? Can the ship go even faster if we give the order twice? What other secret things can the ship do?

This just seems like a poor game mechanic, bringing up more problems than it solves.

I don't know about 2e, but it is in the current High Guard book.
 
High Orbit Drifter said:
I think you're not giving people enough credit. Sure, this is one of those "background" scenes, where it is mostly assumed what happens happens. Like "we drive to the bar"; nobody is going to want to describe the rolls and orders for driving. But if it does come up, like a dramatic escape from Mos Eisley, your players are going to want to know.

You're right in that nobody wants to describe the rolls for driving and such, but after 30 years of playing I think I give people the credit they deserve. I don't think there is anything wrong with not knowing physics, most people don't. It is like technology or machines, it either works or it doesn't, that's life, and that's why I'm here, to think about what they don't have to. For all the elevators I have installed, nobody has thanked me for not falling screaming to their death, they expect me, and all others engineers like me, to do our jobs, which is fair. I do think about the science and technology behind what's going on, whether or not I express it in the game. Right now a player and I are in a discussion about x-ray vision from cybernetic eyes, I'm saying yes, but do they have to have a radioactive component to be active and not passive receptors? I think so, which brings up a question of having radioactive material in your head.
 
High Orbit Drifter said:
The lifting body design would help, but from Classic Traveller, and all game systems for the Imperium setting since, the vast majority of ships do not have wings.
In mongoose, at least, there is the streamlined design.
page 106 core rules said:
streamlined (a wing, disc or other lifting body allowing it to enter the atmosphere easily)
Again, no science whiz but my assumption, which is also indicated by the world generation rules, is that higher gravity generally means denser atmosphere.

I also assume the streamlined body will provide more lift than drag.

Of note, the rules state that for a standard hull "Getting it back into space requires an elaborate launch setup and considerable expense".
 
Reynard said:
Really, get a copy of the new rules. Goes a long ways to explain things.

Once per turn, your engineer declares an Action to Overload Drive. Must make the skill check to perform or no go. The engines get a boost for the turn but suffer damage and each attempt makes it worst so it's really for emergencies.... but looks soo cool!

"Captain, I canna get another warp out a the drives!"


OK, that answers a lot. It also means you're not going to normally launch a 1g ship from a 1.1g+ world since it either might not work, or ruin the drive.
 
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