Pioneer Kickstarter Preview

[Brianw]

Just to be clear, I wasn’t complaining about them avoiding real world companies, I don’t really care one way or the other. I just hope they use real world hardware specs, regardless of developer bias toward/against companies/owners.
Just in case someone got the wrong impression.

 

[rinku]

It's correct and healthy that we should be stress testing the preview material. We're four months away from final layout, approval, and .pdf release. Then another 5 months for expected delivery of the physical product, which I do hope includes the expectation that issues with the initial.pdf release will be brought up and addressed. There WILL be typos, silly mistakes, and things that need clearer wording. Hopefully not too many, but if the customer base gets in to it in those first couple of weeks there's a chance they can be smoothed out before the file is sent to the printer.

I will say also that different people will require different things from the game. And that is good and proper. But those with better understanding of the science and technology may need to polish it up to their own satisfaction. The core product needs to be usable by an average gamer, and narrative convenience is important.

 

[lategamer]

It's correct and healthy that we should be stress testing the preview material.

T-2 days.

But those with better understanding of the science and technology may need to polish it up to their own satisfaction. The core product needs to be usable by an average gamer, and narrative convenience is important.

That’s where the difficulty will lie, IMO.

 

[Brianw]

Will the game have rules for processes like the Sabatier reaction, zero-G mining and other ISRU?

 

[lategamer]

Will the game have rules for processes like the Sabatier reaction, zero-G mining and other ISRU?

I had to look this up. (The Sabatier reaction or Sabatier process produces methane and water from a reaction of hydrogen with carbon dioxide at elevated temperatures (optimally 300–400 °C) and pressures (perhaps 3 megapascals (440 psi; 30 bar) in the presence of a nickel catalyst. NASA is using the Sabatier reaction to recover water from exhaled carbon dioxide and the hydrogen previously discarded from electrolysis on the International Space Station and possibly for future missions. The other resulting chemical, methane, is released into space. As half of the input hydrogen becomes wasted as methane, additional hydrogen is supplied from Earth to make up the difference. However, this creates a nearly-closed cycle between water, oxygen, and carbon dioxide which only requires a relatively modest amount of imported hydrogen to maintain.

ISRU would definitely seem to be within the e scope of Project Hecate Part II (it mentions moons resources) and the Mars mission would likely be impossible without it.

Zero-G mining I’m up for. I reckon we could improv it but support in the base book would not be too challenging. What dedicated equipment would space miners use?

 

[Brianw]

I had to look this up. (The Sabatier reaction or Sabatier process produces methane and water from a reaction of hydrogen with carbon dioxide at elevated temperatures (optimally 300–400 °C) and pressures (perhaps 3 megapascals (440 psi; 30 bar) in the presence of a nickel catalyst. NASA is using the Sabatier reaction to recover water from exhaled carbon dioxide and the hydrogen previously discarded from electrolysis on the International Space Station and possibly for future missions. The other resulting chemical, methane, is released into space. As half of the input hydrogen becomes wasted as methane, additional hydrogen is supplied from Earth to make up the difference. However, this creates a nearly-closed cycle between water, oxygen, and carbon dioxide which only requires a relatively modest amount of imported hydrogen to maintain.

ISRU would definitely seem to be within the e scope of Project Hecate Part II (it mentions moons resources) and the Mars mission would likely be impossible without it.

Zero-G mining I’m up for. I reckon we could improv it but support in the base book would not be too challenging. What dedicated equipment would space miners use?

I highly recommend Robert Zubrin’s book “The Case for Mars” if you haven’t read it. Though it was originally written about 30 years ago, I believe, and his Mars Direct plan is somewhat dated now with advances in modern rockets, that book is still a wealth of information about settling Mars. He talks at great length about nearly all the systems needed for ISRU and even built a working prototype to prove that the Sabatier process actually works, I think before NASA adopted it for the ISS.

I could also see Musk’s Boring Company subsurface drills being used on the Moon and Mars to create underground habitats. And I’m pretty sure they would fit inside Starship. (Please let’s not revisit people’s opinions about the guy, what I care about is if what he does makes these things possible…)

As for Zero-G mining, I don’t know. I haven’t looked into how much work has been done in that area. I can see them using nearly standard drill rigs and harpoon grappling, like they did on one of the asteroid missions a few years ago, but how to deal with the product floating free is the question…? I’ve seen computer animation of large net/bag systems surrounding tailings, closing and having some sort of propulsion to bring it back but that seems somewhat farfetched.

 

[lategamer]

I highly recommend Robert Zubrin’s book “The Case for Mars” if you haven’t read it. Though it was originally written about 30 years ago, I believe, and his Mars Direct plan is somewhat dated now with advances in modern rockets, that book is still a wealth of information about settling Mars. He talks at great length about nearly all the systems needed for ISRU and even built a working prototype to prove that the Sabatier process actually works, I think before NASA adopted it for the ISS.

I’ll see about picking it up.

to create underground habitats.

I think the drills used in making the channel tunnel would do the trick. Tried and tested. Delivered 31 years ago as well. Amazing.

As for Zero-G mining, I don’t know. I haven’t looked into how much work has been done in that area. I can see them using nearly standard drill rigs and harpoon grappling, like they did on one of the asteroid missions a few years ago, but how to deal with the product floating free is the question…? I’ve seen computer animation of large net/bag systems surrounding tailings, closing and having some sort of propulsion to bring it back but that seems somewhat farfetched.

Crash it onto the moon?

 

[Michael S]

I had to look this up. (The Sabatier reaction or Sabatier process produces methane and water from a reaction of hydrogen with carbon dioxide at elevated temperatures (optimally 300–400 °C) and pressures (perhaps 3 megapascals (440 psi; 30 bar) in the presence of a nickel catalyst. NASA is using the Sabatier reaction to recover water from exhaled carbon dioxide and the hydrogen previously discarded from electrolysis on the International Space Station and possibly for future missions. The other resulting chemical, methane, is released into space. As half of the input hydrogen becomes wasted as methane, additional hydrogen is supplied from Earth to make up the difference. However, this creates a nearly-closed cycle between water, oxygen, and carbon dioxide which only requires a relatively modest amount of imported hydrogen to maintain.

ISRU would definitely seem to be within the e scope of Project Hecate Part II (it mentions moons resources) and the Mars mission would likely be impossible without it.

Zero-G mining I’m up for. I reckon we could improv it but support in the base book would not be too challenging. What dedicated equipment would space miners use?

Some recent proposals for the recovery bags for smaller asteroids, that Brianw mentions all seem to be missing a way to stabilize the asteroid after "bagging it", likely a way to pretect a TM.

Potential sources of conflict for Role Playing challenges:

A number of the asteroids appear to be rotating atributed to the YORP effect (changing spin rate due to re-emiting the incoming solar radiation) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YORP_effect

Additionally that YORP effect may/seems to contribute to the Yarkovsky effect (the re-emmited radiation acting as a thruster) changing the bodies orbit - https://svs.gsfc.nasa.gov/11964

I saw a an asteroid mining article years ago, now lost to Internet Link Decay, that suggested that pumping an inert gas Nitrogen (N) into the bag would gradually eliminate the spin to the point where you could remove the N and cinch the bag tight without the asteroid imparting spin to your asteroid capture mining drone.

From there it still involved moving the captured body to a processing plant - while perhaps baking some volitles out of the body with focused sunlight - https://www.planetary.org/space-images/transastra-honey-bee-asteroid-miner

Currently IMPU (in my Pioneer Universe) i will not be using Zero-G mining. However every asteroid type we know of in our solar system, has likely already impacted on Luna. Insert strip minning craters for resources and Role Playing conflict resolution.

Would love to see some other thoughts on this

 

[lategamer]

Currently IMPU (in my Pioneer Universe) i will not be using Zero-G mining. However every asteroid type we know of in our solar system, has likely already impacted on Luna. Insert strip minning craters for resources and Role Playing conflict resolution.

Would love to see some other thoughts on this

That’s a fair point re combing Luna for minerals. Finding a good* lunar map has been a struggle.

Might be a lot safer than actual asteroid mining.


*I am fussy.

 

[Michael S]

That’s a fair point re combing Luna for minerals. Finding a good* lunar map has been a struggle.

Might be a lot safer than actual asteroid mining.


*I am fussy.

Try this in Globe mode (Left Hand Menu)

LROC QuickMap

LROC QuickMap, a powerful map interface to browse Lunar data from NASA/LRO and other missions. Explore the Moon in both 2D and 3D. Developed by Applied Coherent Technology and customized for the LROC team at ASU

quickmap.lroc.im-ldi.com

 

[lategamer]

Try this in Globe mode (Left Hand Menu)

Actually Orthographic (Nearside and Farside) is the closest one to what I want. But what I’m really looking for is a flat projection (not Mercator but you know what I mean)

 

[Michael S]

Actually Orthographic (Nearside and Farside) is the closest one to what I want. But what I’m really looking for is a flat projection (not Mercator but you know what I mean)

Bet you that it is already available, but the $ is out of this world for game use

 

[lategamer]

Bet you that it is already available, but the $ is out of this world for game use

https://www.physics.unlv.edu/~jeffery/astro/moon/map/moon_map_mercator.html

Flattened but not a projection.

 

[Brianw]

Crash it onto the moon?

I think the idea was to either process it on orbit (requiring more technology development we don’t yet have) or transfer to capsules and, especially with precious metals, send back down to earth. I’m guessing any plans, especially those made public were just high-level concepts.

 

[Brianw]

Some recent proposals for the recovery bags for smaller asteroids, that Brianw mentions all seem to be missing a way to stabilize the asteroid after "bagging it", likely a way to pretect a TM.

Potential sources of conflict for Role Playing challenges:

A number of the asteroids appear to be rotating atributed to the YORP effect (changing spin rate due to re-emiting the incoming solar radiation) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YORP_effect

Additionally that YORP effect may/seems to contribute to the Yarkovsky effect (the re-emmited radiation acting as a thruster) changing the bodies orbit - https://svs.gsfc.nasa.gov/11964

I saw a an asteroid mining article years ago, now lost to Internet Link Decay, that suggested that pumping an inert gas Nitrogen (N) into the bag would gradually eliminate the spin to the point where you could remove the N and cinch the bag tight without the asteroid imparting spin to your asteroid capture mining drone.

From there it still involved moving the captured body to a processing plant - while perhaps baking some volitles out of the body with focused sunlight - https://www.planetary.org/space-images/transastra-honey-bee-asteroid-miner

Currently IMPU (in my Pioneer Universe) i will not be using Zero-G mining. However every asteroid type we know of in our solar system, has likely already impacted on Luna. Insert strip minning craters for resources and Role Playing conflict resolution.

Would love to see some other thoughts on this

Good point about Lunar mining. And if we ever get fusion working (haha, I know), He3. See the movie “Moon” (without the cloning).
However, dwarf planets like Ceres could possibly be great candidates for mining as well. The next stretch goal is actually what made me think to ask about the mining in game. It would be great if that mission covered it. Sure we be nice to get a response from the devs.

 

[Brianw]

https://www.physics.unlv.edu/~jeffery/astro/moon/map/moon_map_mercator.html

Flattened but not a projection.

Doesn’t NASA already have mineral maps of the moon on their site? I’m sure I saw them shown in a YouTube video at some point.

Edit: ah, I see the site Micheal S shared already has at least some of it.

 

[lategamer]

specially with precious metals, send back down to earth.

Or depending on the state of development, manufacture in space.

Heck, why not just attach the factory/refinery to the asteroid in place. Only need to move the refined product, either to another space factory for value added services or export to an earthbound population.

Hmmm. We need an assessment of what “life on earth” is like. I’m assuming immense inequality, climate disasters and runaway lobbying. That’s the vibe I get from the passenger NPCs in the Preview.