Pioneer Kickstarter Preview

[Michael S]

Why would there be manual control at all?

Spacecraft these days are flown by the onboard computer using a flight plan generated by the computers on the ground.

Manual control gave Neil Armstrong the opportunity to miss the boulder field and land the Eagle upright. And the cargo space craft today are remotely operated from their various mission controls, only the Cargo Dragon docks automatically - after it gets permission to approach.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Whereas I can see the need for humans for quick responses.

The computer technology level may be important. I mean I'm guessing that Pioneers are not asking an LLM to plot a course, it will be a proper navigation computer (by 2025, we've got a lot of really cool tech in automated marine navigation, even in the consumer app space). Projecting forwards thirty years, having a nav-computer in your pocket isn't unreasonable.

But...if we replace stuff that people do (Why even have Pilots?) then the point of the game starts to disappear.

When was the last time a spacecraft was flown by a human pilot? With computer assistance they wiggle a joystick for docking sometimes, but everything else, launch, orbital correction, de-orbit, re-entry, landing, is automated. Crew Dragon, starliner and Soyuz are all fully automated.

Like I said, I can see the need for human missions, I can even see the occasional manual control of a spacecraft, but mostly the human crew are along for the ride.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Manual control gave Neil Armstrong the opportunity to miss the boulder field and land the Eagle upright.

That was then, this is the near future.

And the cargo space craft today are remotely operated from their various mission controls, only the Cargo Dragon docks automatically - after it gets permission to approach.

Even the crewed missions are automatically docked, usually.

Manual control has only been used rarely in recent years, mostly by Soyuz crews. Data is unavailable for how the Chinese do it (or rather I can't find any data on it, others may have better luck).

 

[lategamer]

That was then, this is the near future.

Even the crewed missions are automatically docked, usually.

Manual control has only been used rarely in recent years, mostly by Soyuz crews. Data is unavailable for how the Chinese do it (or rather I can't find any data on it, others may have better luck).

OK, I read you.

So, do we get rid of the Pilot skill as outdated?

 

[Michael S]

That was then, this is the near future.

Even the crewed missions are automatically docked, usually.

Manual control has only been used rarely in recent years, mostly by Soyuz crews. Data is unavailable for how the Chinese do it (or rather I can't find any data on it, others may have better luck).

The Shenzhou is based on the Soyuz and would likely use and improve on the existing system.

Here is a short list of Automated Lunar landers that could have used some manual control in the last few years:

• iSpace HAKUTO-R Mission 2 (June 2025): Crashed due to a software error caused by varying readings from a laser altimeter.
• Russia's Luna-25 (August 2023): Spun out of control and crashed after a maneuver to enter lunar orbit went wrong.
• Intuitive Machines IM-2 Athena (March 2025): Landed but tipped over into a crater
• Intuitive Machines IM-1 Odysseus (February 2024): Landed on its side
• JAXA - Slim 2024: Lost an engine, still landed on its side and operated over 3 Lunar days
• IL - Beresheet 2019: Engine cut out - Litobreaking instead

It is an RPG, The players will likely want some control over their Space Craft.

A short scene from The Right Stuff 1984:

 

[Sigtrygg]

OK, I read you.

So, do we get rid of the Pilot skill as outdated?

No, they still train for manual control, very much so. When things go wrong you need the back up, and with more manned space flight there will be a lot more going wrong...

 

[lategamer]

It is an RPG, The players will likely want some control over their Space Craft.

A short scene from The Right Stuff 1984:

 

[Michael S]

Yeah, that hole should have closer to his centre of M(ass) easier to control between his legs and leaning his body to adjust

 

[MasterGwydion]

The Shenzhou is based on the Soyuz and would likely use and improve on the existing system.

Here is a short list of Automated Lunar landers that could have used some manual control in the last few years:

• iSpace HAKUTO-R Mission 2 (June 2025): Crashed due to a software error caused by varying readings from a laser altimeter.
• Russia's Luna-25 (August 2023): Spun out of control and crashed after a maneuver to enter lunar orbit went wrong.
• Intuitive Machines IM-2 Athena (March 2025): Landed but tipped over into a crater
• Intuitive Machines IM-1 Odysseus (February 2024): Landed on its side
• JAXA - Slim 2024: Lost an engine, still landed on its side and operated over 3 Lunar days
• IL - Beresheet 2019: Engine cut out - Litobreaking instead

It is an RPG, The players will likely want some control over their Space Craft.

A short scene from The Right Stuff 1984:

Players wanting to be pilots in space are probably more science fantasy than science fiction given how actual flight in space works. My guess is for "space flight", most players would be bored by the reality of it. 90% of every flight would be "procedures" carried out by the crew that were all precalculated. As long as no equipment malfunctions and they follow the procedure, everything should go as planned. Equipment malfunction, refer to manual 42 for the procedure. Spontaneous and space flight are two things that usually don't do together in a near 2025-level technological era.

 

[lategamer]

Yeah, that hole should have closer to his centre of M(ass) easier to control between his legs and leaning his body to adjust

"OK, roll Pilot at -5" and you look like you need the toilet.

 

[lategamer]

Players wanting to be pilots in space are probably more science fantasy than science fiction given how actual flight in space works. My guess is for "space flight", most players would be bored by the reality of it. 90% of every flight would be "procedures" carried out by the crew that were all precalculated. As long as no equipment malfunctions and they follow the procedure, everything should go as planned. Equipment malfunction, refer to manual 42 for the procedure. Spontaneous and space flight are two things that usually don't do together in a near 2025-level technological era.

Sure. I think it's encouraged that people would not RP every moment of the 3 days to get to the moon.

But when you have to dock with the spinning capsule once you're there? There has to be something for humans to do. This doesn't necessarily mean it's science fantasy....we mostly seem to send a qualified pilot for the things Mission Control can't plan for. That's the point.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Sure. I think it's encouraged that people would not RP every moment of the 3 days to get to the moon.

Agreed, but with the right players it may be humorous.

But when you have to dock with the spinning capsule once you're there? There has to be something for humans to do. This doesn't necessarily mean it's science fantasy....we mostly seem to send a qualified pilot for the things Mission Control can't plan for. That's the point.

In 30 years, we may not even have pilots in airplanes. Taxis are already starting to be driverless, as are semi trucks. Both of these used to required qualified drivers, now you just need to buy the robotaxi. In 30 more years, who knows? There is likely a lot to do for humans at the destination, but likely not much to actually do in flight. Even EVA stuff will likely be done by remotely-operated drones. The humans will likely still have to control them as I doubt autonomous problem-solving will improve much in the next 30 years.

 

[lategamer]

In 30 years, we may not even have pilots in airplanes. Taxis are already starting to be driverless, as are semi trucks. Both of these used to required qualified drivers, now you just need to buy the robotaxi. In 30 more years, who knows? There is likely a lot to do for humans at the destination, but likely not much to actually do in flight. Even EVA stuff will likely be done by remotely-operated drones. The humans will likely still have to control them as I doubt autonomous problem-solving will improve much in the next 30 years.

Why do we have Pilots in Traveller? Heck, why is everything not just done by computer?

there has to be a reason for using humans in the story. Or else Pioneer becomes the Remote Operator work of someone prompting a Dog-like or Spider-like drone. Which could be a cool game but it's not what's advertised.

 

[Sigtrygg]

It has long been my contention that piloting a spacecraft in Traveller is no more difficult than playing a space flight sim... the computer does the real work, the human just wiggles the joystick. Ok, there is a bit more to it than that, but without the fly by wire computer aided control you ain't going to deadstick a type A.

 

[Michael S]

Players wanting to be pilots in space are probably more science fantasy than science fiction given how actual flight in space works. My guess is for "space flight", most players would be bored by the reality of it. 90% of every flight would be "procedures" carried out by the crew that were all precalculated. As long as no equipment malfunctions and they follow the procedure, everything should go as planned. Equipment malfunction, refer to manual 42 for the procedure. Spontaneous and space flight are two things that usually don't do together in a near 2025-level technological era.

Yes, spontaneous is when you need to have to land the plane in the Hudson NOW or when the sensor burns out during your space flight. Then someone has to suit up to go outside, replace it, and then kick it to reset it.
The Role playing is Player v Player or Player v NPC. Space flight gives us a new setting for The Murder on the Oceanus Procellarum Express from LEO to LLO. But the Pioneer i want to play is certainly not Star Wars or BSG space fighters zooming around.

 

[Michael S]

It has long been my contention that piloting a spacecraft in Traveller is no more difficult than playing a space flight sim... the computer does the real work, the human just wiggles the joystick. Ok, there is a bit more to it than that, but without the fly by wire computer aided control you ain't going to deadstick a type A.

completely agree with that, I want to make cerrtain the Mass of the ship, plus the Mass of the cargo, minus the Mass of the fuel i am going to burn gives me enough Δv to get from LEO to the EML1 station and dock there. Then I am going to role play out finding the NPC that ripped me off in LEO and Role Play how to get my money back that he stole from me. Space flight in Pioneer should not be fantasy, but a setting for role playing.

 

[lategamer]

completely agree with that, I want to make cerrtain the Mass of the ship, plus the Mass of the cargo, minus the Mass of the fuel i am going to burn gives me enough Δv to get from LEO to the EML1 station and dock there.

You're going to need an app for that.

Then I am going to role play out finding the NPC that ripped me off in LEO and Role Play how to get my money back that he stole from me. Space flight in Pioneer should not be fantasy, but a setting for role playing.

Space Flight looks to be an autonomous taxi ride.

 

[Sigtrygg]

I still remember the space combat introduction in Cyberpunk Near orbit - and how it tells you to forget about Star Wars and the like space travel and combat. Cyberpunk had some pretty good rules for space travel on the two space supplements.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Yes, spontaneous is when you need to have to land the plane in the Hudson NOW or when the sensor burns out during your space flight. Then someone has to suit up to go outside, replace it, and then kick it to reset it.

Exactly, or send a remotely-operated drone to repair it.

The Role playing is Player v Player or Player v NPC.

You forgot PC vs. environment.

Space flight gives us a new setting for The Murder on the Oceanus Procellarum Express from LEO to LLO. But the Pioneer i want to play is certainly not Star Wars or BSG space fighters zooming around.

It has been a long time, but in Murder on the Orient Express, you didn't need someone who knew how to run the train. You were merely a passenger or service staff. So, no pilots in that either. It would basically be the exact same scenario if done in deep water instead of in space. Or like in real life, some billionaire gets in trouble in a submersible and the PCs are the rescue mission. It is basically the exact same mission as the example adventure for Pioneer. This one does require a pilot currently, but in 30 years, likely that will be automated as well. In 30 years, I doubt we will have humanoid drones to send as rescue personnel, so humans would be required for that part.

So, yes, space gives you a new setting, but most adventures will not be significantly different just by being moved into space. At least not significantly different than moving it from land to underwater as opposed to in space. Both are environments are deadly to humans outside of the sealed environment. Both scenarios can kill humans fairly easily if they do something stupid. Both are good settings for adventures, but they are also basically the same adventure.

 

[lategamer]

Exactly, or send a remotely-operated drone to repair it.

Just seems like a vastly different game when described like that.

So, yes, space gives you a new setting, but most adventures will not be significantly different just by being moved into space. At least not significantly different than moving it from land to underwater as opposed to in space. Both are environments are deadly to humans outside of the sealed environment. Both scenarios can kill humans fairly easily if they do something stupid. Both are good settings for adventures, but they are also basically the same adventure.

Looking at the Rescue from LEO scenario. There would be literally no need for the PCs at all. In fact, you'd be better off making the people in the FlyUp! the PCs. Roleplay their mental state over the comms and with each other, roll for them doing the very limited EVA, and then play out the press conference at the end.