Piercing points value

[Rabidchild]

Just thought I'd ask everyone here what they thought the value of the piercing trait would equate to in points. This is just in general, some situations would be different, for example piercing/5 would probably be worth more than five times piercing/1.

Thoughts, comments, suggestions?

 

[Alexb83]

1d10 piercing/5 would be worth commensurately more than d6-1 piercing /5, too

It's a funny thing to try and balance.

 

[Agis]

Welcome to my world... :wink: :wink:

 

[Paladin]

1d10 piercing/5 would be worth commensurately more than d6-1 piercing /5, too

It's a funny thing to try and balance.

Agreed. My personal opinion is that you'd have to define piercing as a % based upgrade. Unfortunately that means you'd have to stat the base weapon damages first.

 

[Graywinter]

Piercing I think is diminishing return. After a certain point, you are modifying the armor values of a tank into a 7+ and that doesn't do anything more than make it more impossible to make the save.

I mean, If the best Allied armor save is a 3+, then a piercing/5 weapon is not necessary. I'd put a cap on it, to be honest and just increase the points by aroun 30% - 40% each time. I think a 50% increase would be too high, while a 25% increase is too cheap.

Low velocity weapons seem to be D6. High velocity seem to be D10. I don't know that low velocity weapons have piercing, or should, anyway.

Multihit is the one that makes me boggle... like when I tried to stat out the M4(105) Sherman. It has a 105mm howitzer, and that is something that does not exist in the game right now as anything except off board artillery, perhaps. I know a 105 can pop a German tank when firing directly, but there are no conventions for large caliber rounds. Only low or high velocity, and it seems that HE weapons are pretty much not in the tank killing business.

So, I give it a D6+5, like other low velocity HE weapons (mortars and such) have a D6, but give it multihit without piercing. That way, while it CAN damage even a Panther's 9+ frontal armor the tank gets its full save but if it fails.. it is gonna be hurting - crippled from multihit.

On smaller stuff, like a Panzer IV, it has a good chance of scoring a hit, and if it fails the save it WILL be destroyed as it only has 2 hits.

 

[hithero]

The problem with having such a high bonus (D6+5) as it then means that unless a 1 is rolled many light vehicles and infantry will be pretty much destroyed.
I would have thought multi-hit would be dependent on the weight of the shot and its effect once the target has been penetrated, could have any gun of 85mm or above, but that rule is already broken by the 75L70 having it and the Russian 85mm not.

Piecing should be dependent on actual penetration of guns, which is easy enough to gather.

Damage Dice, I would say depends on velocity for accuracy and effect, the problem is so many gun attributes can effect more than one trait and unfortunately the current rules do not seem to follow any logical formulae that could have been easily produced and followed from the outset.

 

[Graywinter]

Well, it IS a 105mm howitzer...

BIG bada-boom!! :twisted:

 

[Alexb83]

Yep - things like a 105mm, or an AVRE petard, or a the KV-2's 152mm, or any of the Brit CS version tanks with 3" demolition howitzers - IF they hit, should pretty much blow anything apart (perhaps not in the case of the 3" guns when it comes to tanks).

It does get to a point when your weight of shot or sheer mass of high explosive should do the trick - even if it just acts as a big HESH round and doesn't penetrate the tank or bunker, it'll kill anything inside.

 

[Graywinter]

Even if the round misses, if it is large enough it will blow a crater large enough to cripple the tank or just flip it over. I hear stories of Tiger tanks getting flipped like toys when a 1,000 pound bomb lands beside them.

 

[Rabidchild]

Thanks for the replies everyone. It makes me feel better that others think the same as I do about piercing, and especially about the howitzer HEAT rounds. The main advantage of HEAT is that its penetration remains the same regardless of range, something not covered by the WaW rules.

@Graywinter: Great minds...

 

[DM]

Even if the round misses, if it is large enough it will blow a crater large enough to cripple the tank or just flip it over. I hear stories of Tiger tanks getting flipped like toys when a 1,000 pound bomb lands beside them.

Heard stories and indeed seen the pictures. There are some classic photos of flipped Tigers out there (sod's law means I can't find any on the net at the moment but I've definitely seen them, I even have a few at work). I've seen this for real on a smaller scale as well - modern APCs flipped completely on their back by some types of (not overly large) anti tank mine.