Pavis geography

[PhilHibbs]

Is the compass on the map on the inside cover correct? It is contradicted twice in the text:
Page 10, "Streets of Light and Reason"
The streets of the urbanised area, known as the Free City, dominating the northern half of Pavis,

The Free City is south of the river on the map, occupying most of the western quarter of the city, and can in no way be described as "northern".

Page 11, middle left
And Lord Pavis's presence is marked upon the city in two, clear ways. First is the Pavis Temple, which rises from the hill in the east of the city,

On the map, the temple is in the western part of the Free City, which is in the west of greater Pavis City.

Is the map wrong, or is the text wrong?

 

[Chronos]

In this 3rd age map, you can see Temple Hill off to the east side.

 

[Deleriad]

It's funny, but I've run 5 sessions now of Pavis Rises and the Big Rubble map is a little melancholy. I have got so used to the beauty and grandeur of it that seeing the rubble is just a little sad.

 

[PhilHibbs]

In this 3rd age map, you can see Temple Hill off to the east side.

Ah, I assumed the temple was on the hill in the Free City, labelled "The Real City" on the Big Rubble map.

 

[simonh]

I thought the Pavis temple was in the Real City, which is in the west. Not sure what Temple Hill is.

Simon Hibbs

 

[PhilHibbs]

I thought the Pavis temple was in the Real City, which is in the west. Not sure what Temple Hill is.

According to The Big Rubble, you're right:

At the height of its glory, there were holy places
throughout the city dedicated to Pavis. The various
devastation’s have profaned most such places,
except for the Real City temple. Despite the
casting-down of the temple’s outer walls and the
crack in the inner walls, the temple of Pavis
remains a shrine to that god and an object of
pilgrimage.

Temple Hill
...
This area was set aside for temples to all the
foreign gods worshipped with-in the walls of
Pavis. Here can be found mostly ruined temples
of Yelm, Orlanth, Kyger Litor, Argan Argar, Waha,
Eiritha, Daka Fal, Ernalda, and many other gods
worshipped by residents of the city at its prime.

So it looks like Pavis Rises has it the other way around - it says that The Free City is scattered with foreign temples, and the Temple of Pavis is on Temple Hill. The Big Rubble says there are no foreign temples in Manside, they are all on Temple Hill, and the Temple of Pavis is in The Real City. Maybe it was a big God Learner "switch" experiment? My players could be involved in that!

 

[Loz]

No, the text is wrong: it should have read west, not east.

The Pavis Temple is in Real City, built on its own hill that looks out across the rest of the urbanised area.

Temple Hill, in the east, is a separate prominence.

 

[PhilHibbs]

No, the text is wrong: it should have read west, not east.

And the other bit, about the Free City having temples to other deities in it, also wrong? Or, does that change at some point in Pavis's history? 'Fraid I don't have my copy with me to refer to as I've gone away for the week-end and forgotten it (D'oh! Sorry Simon!)

 

[Loz]

And the other bit, about the Free City having temples to other deities in it, also wrong?

No, its not wrong. There are foreign temples in Real City - at this point in time. Things change in the 700 or so years between Pavis Rises-era Pavis and Big Rubble era Third Age. How, and why, things change is for GMs to decide.

But circa 920, Real City, as Manside is called at this stage, has temples to all kinds of deities. And why wouldn't it? Pavis's cult is still nascent and the city welcomes all cultures and races: attempting to ghettoise temples outside the main urban area would not be in keeping with the Pavic philosophy - although some, like the Yelmalio Temple, have clear cultural reasons for being outside Real City/Manside.

I really think that people have to approach Second Age Pavis quite differently to how they've approached it through 'Pavis and Big Rubble'. To become the Rubble Pavis undergoes complete and profound change wrought by many cultures over a very long period of time. Pavis as described in Pavis Rises is a very different place to that presented in Big Rubble.

 

[GianniVacca]

Any tie-in between the Mongoose Pavis book and A Rough Guide to Pavis City? Both are set in the 2nd Age.

 

[Loz]

Any tie-in between the Mongoose Pavis book and A Rough Guide to Pavis City? Both are set in the 2nd Age.

None.

 

[PhilHibbs]

There are foreign temples in Real City - at this point in time. Things change in the 700 or so years between Pavis Rises-era Pavis and Big Rubble era Third Age. How, and why, things change is for GMs to decide.

So what is Temple Hill in the Second Age? Just "the hill next to the Flintnail temple"? Or are there some temples that are relegated to the distant hill from the start, and more get kicked out over there over time?
*edit* I agree that it did seem odd to me, given the all-inclusive, tolerant premise of Pavis, that religions were all relegated to a distant hill. Maybe it's a consequence of the inevitable conflict that does arise from having, for example, both traditionalist and draconised temples in the same city.

 

[Loz]

Its named Gods' Hill in the Second Age and described on pages 53 and 54 of the book. It should have been named that on the map too, but it got overlooked.

 

[PhilHibbs]

Even the God Learners have a temple in the old Robcradle settlement: a small but impressive dedicated to the Malkioni, True Church"

The table on Page 16 lists a Malkioni temple in Prophet District, which is in the Free City. Seems like an inconsistency, although p10 doesn't explicitly say that the only church is on Robcradle Island. Kind of odd though that they have temples in both places - I could understand a small temple in the Free City and a larger one elsewhere, but the elsewhere temple is small as well. Also, the table doesn't only list Free City temples, as the Sun Dome Temple Hill temple is listed. So why isn't the Robcradle temple listed in the Malkioni section?
*Edit* OK I've read the Prophet District bit now, which clarifies the difference between that and Cradlesnatch. Still, I think the table on p16 should list the Cradlesnatch Island temples.

 

[PhilHibbs]

Its named Gods' Hill in the Second Age and described on pages 53 and 54 of the book. It should have been named that on the map too, but it got overlooked.

Gods' Hill on p53-54 is not the same as Temple Hill. Gods' Hill is in the Free City, the southern most of the Twin Hills (marked 9 on the inside cover map), whereas Temple Hill (8) is in the far east, beyond the Orchard. Also, the Big Rubble map (posted above) shows the "Old Flintnail Temple" at Temple Hill, and "Current Flintnail Temple" at The Quarry. So, if, as the table on p16 says, the Flintnail Temple is at The Quarry, then what is at Temple Hill in the time of Pavis Rises? Nothing?
*Edit* Hang on, now there's another Temple Hill on page 33, which appears to be the hill that the Pavis Temple is on. So there's a Third Age "Temple Hill" in the east, to which all outsider temples are banished at some point after Pavis Rises is set, which is mistakenly also labelled "Temple Hill" in Pavis Rises. There's Gods' Hill, the southernmost of the Twin Hills, which is where the outsider temples were originally going to be relegated to. Then there's the Second Age "Temple Hill", which is slightly west of centre in the Free City, and has the Pavis Temple on it. This is all very confusing. Would it not have been better to name it "Pavis Hill" to avoid the name clash with the Third Age "Temple Hill"?

 

[PhilHibbs]

Another geography question: where exactly is Impala Bridge? It's "300 meters from the south wall of the city", that puts it right on where the Crade Docks & Harbour are on the map. Is it upstream or downstream of the docks? Also, are the other bridges in Pavis high enough to allow a cradle to pass underneath? I seem to remember from the classic 3rd Age Cradle scenario that at least one bridge is smashed by the cradle hitting it. Is that a danger if a cradle should pass through Pavis in c922, or is it built with cradles in mind?

 

[PhilHibbs]

Also:

Dwarfs in Pavis live almost exclusively in the southern half of the city; near the massive Mostal temple that Flintnail built

Is that right? The Flintnail temple is in the north, by the Quarry.

Also, in relation to the Third Age "Old Flintnail Temple" (by the hill marked 8 on the PR inside cover), and the Third Age "Current Flintnail Temple" by the Quarry - is the "Old" temple already there as of 922, or is it built and then relocated back to the Quarry at some point in the future?

 

[Loz]

Another geography question: where exactly is Impala Bridge? It's "300 meters from the south wall of the city", that puts it right on where the Crade Docks & Harbour are on the map. Is it upstream or downstream of the docks? Also, are the other bridges in Pavis high enough to allow a cradle to pass underneath? I seem to remember from the classic 3rd Age Cradle scenario that at least one bridge is smashed by the cradle hitting it. Is that a danger if a cradle should pass through Pavis in c922, or is it built with cradles in mind?

The bridge is just downstream of the docks.

It is high enough to let a cradle pass beneath? Very good question. I'd say no. None of the Pavis bridges are built to accommodate cradles - which may or may not cause issues at some stage ( ). Of course, much would depend on the depth of the Zola Fel; if its water level were to fall for some reason then it may well be possible. And, Zola Fel himself might adjust his level should a cradle come sailing down the river, as the river and giants do share an ancestry and some myths.

 

[Loz]

Is that right? The Flintnail temple is in the north, by the Quarry.

Its a typo. Should read north eastern.

Also, in relation to the Third Age "Old Flintnail Temple" (by the hill marked 8 on the PR inside cover), and the Third Age "Current Flintnail Temple" by the Quarry - is the "Old" temple already there as of 922, or is it built and then relocated back to the Quarry at some point in the future?

Its already there.

 

[PhilHibbs]

The bridge is just downstream of the docks.

It is high enough to let a cradle pass beneath? Very good question. I'd say no. None of the Pavis bridges are built to accommodate cradles - which may or may not cause issues at some stage ( ).

:wink: I haven't got as far as the plot & scenarios section yet! Just posting as and when I read (hence my earlier question about Malkioni temples that was clarified by further reading).

One thing that surprised me a little was the tension between True Malkioni Church and the Hrestoli. I was a little surprosed to see the TMC described as "God Learners" and at odds with the "heretical" Hrestoli. I thought Hrestoli were more or less the mainstream Malkioni in the way that Rokari are in the Third Age.