passengers shooting from vehicles...
- Thread starter Mr Evil
- Start date
Iain McGhee
Mongoose
Couldn't find any rules for it either when I was reading up on the Desant squad rules. Looks like passengers are just treated like the crews of the vehicles they're loaded on (other than tank riders, who just hang on outside 
). They'd likely have to write seperate rules depending on what type of vehicle they were in (or on), what they could fire and what the vehicle could do if they fired. Might well get a bit overcomplicated.
). They'd likely have to write seperate rules depending on what type of vehicle they were in (or on), what they could fire and what the vehicle could do if they fired. Might well get a bit overcomplicated.Rabidchild
Mongoose
It's a bit of a grey area IMO. The transport section says that the vehicle can transport them and, how you move to do so, and what happens to them if the vehicle is destroyed, but not what the transported infantry can do while riding.
The land-rover from MC says that it gains the multishot trait equal to models carried. Does this imply that transported models cannot fire unless the vehicle they're riding allows them to do so?
What about reactions? Can a squad debark as a reaction to an attack that nearly killed their transport (assuming all other reaction requirements are met)?
Can the unit be targeted while riding? The tank-rider rule seems to imply that you can, but is it only against tank riders?
Do LZ weapons roll against transported models as well as the transport?
The land-rover from MC says that it gains the multishot trait equal to models carried. Does this imply that transported models cannot fire unless the vehicle they're riding allows them to do so?
What about reactions? Can a squad debark as a reaction to an attack that nearly killed their transport (assuming all other reaction requirements are met)?
Can the unit be targeted while riding? The tank-rider rule seems to imply that you can, but is it only against tank riders?
Do LZ weapons roll against transported models as well as the transport?
Lorcan Nagle
Mongoose
As models carried by units (except for tank riders)are off-board they can't react or be effected by LZ weapons. I do think there should be a trait called "open-topped" or somesuch to allow models on tehnicals and land rovers to fire out if they're not manning an onboard weapon. So a 6-man squad on a landie could fire the GPMG and the Javelin/whatever and have 4 others firing rifles or LMGs...
As for tank riders, recall that you don't target a unit but lay down a fire zone. Firing an anti tank weapon and a bunch of rifles/MGs into a zone with a tank with riders means you can allocate dice to the riders.
As for tank riders, recall that you don't target a unit but lay down a fire zone. Firing an anti tank weapon and a bunch of rifles/MGs into a zone with a tank with riders means you can allocate dice to the riders.
Rabidchild
Mongoose
That's a rule from the old BF:Evo I think. The new rules make no mention of removing the models from the table, which is part of my point. The transport rules say that you can be transported by moving in contact with the transport vehicle, that both the unit and the vehicle can only take one action that turn, and that the unit transported is destroyed if their vehicle is, but nothing else.Lorcan Nagle said:
Right, I was referring to a LZ, Lethal Zone weapon.Lorcan Nagle said:
The question of passengers in vehicles was discussed a lot during the writing of WaW.
To show that we had thought of it
:wink:
take a look at my initial draft (back from the times when we had target modifiers...):
"Open transport Vehicles
Up to half of the mounted models (rounding down) may fire from an open transport vehicle at a –1 penalty to their Damage dice if the open transport vehicle takes a Shoot action. If the open transport vehicle is destroyed, every model on board will immediately suffer a D6 Damage Dice.
Example: A German Panzergrenadier squad has mounted a SdKfZ 251/1. The SdKfz 251/1 is a Transport 10 open vehicle, so half of the squad = 5 Panzergrenadiers may shoot.
However, this goes both ways! As soon as a mounted unit shoots from an open transport vehicle in its last action all enemy units may shoot at the mounted unit instead of the vehicle itself. The mounted unit will benefit from the vehicles armour and counts as in cover. The mounted unit receives therefore a +2 bonus to both Target and Kill scores.
Example: The above mentioned German Panzergrenadier squad has shot from their SdKfZ 251/1 in its last action. A US infantry squad wants to shoot at the mounted German unit. Since the German unit is within an open trans-port unit their Target score raises to 6 while their Kill score is 8!
It is only possible to shoot at a mounted unit if the unit shoots as their last action. If a mounted unit shoots as their first action and the vehicle then moves as the second action, it is presumed that the mounted unit is keeping their heads down and a Line of Sight to the mounted unit is not possible."
In the final editing it was decided to delete all the above.
Since we have no rules for shooting in or out of vehicles - none can be done.
Since these are all rule questions and nothing about the army list the final call is from Matt… 8)
To show that we had thought of it
:wink:
take a look at my initial draft (back from the times when we had target modifiers...):
"Open transport Vehicles
Up to half of the mounted models (rounding down) may fire from an open transport vehicle at a –1 penalty to their Damage dice if the open transport vehicle takes a Shoot action. If the open transport vehicle is destroyed, every model on board will immediately suffer a D6 Damage Dice.
Example: A German Panzergrenadier squad has mounted a SdKfZ 251/1. The SdKfz 251/1 is a Transport 10 open vehicle, so half of the squad = 5 Panzergrenadiers may shoot.
However, this goes both ways! As soon as a mounted unit shoots from an open transport vehicle in its last action all enemy units may shoot at the mounted unit instead of the vehicle itself. The mounted unit will benefit from the vehicles armour and counts as in cover. The mounted unit receives therefore a +2 bonus to both Target and Kill scores.
Example: The above mentioned German Panzergrenadier squad has shot from their SdKfZ 251/1 in its last action. A US infantry squad wants to shoot at the mounted German unit. Since the German unit is within an open trans-port unit their Target score raises to 6 while their Kill score is 8!
It is only possible to shoot at a mounted unit if the unit shoots as their last action. If a mounted unit shoots as their first action and the vehicle then moves as the second action, it is presumed that the mounted unit is keeping their heads down and a Line of Sight to the mounted unit is not possible."
In the final editing it was decided to delete all the above.
Since we have no rules for shooting in or out of vehicles - none can be done.
Since these are all rule questions and nothing about the army list the final call is from Matt… 8)
You could easily keep track by just putting a few models in the vehicle if they fires on their last action, you wouldn't need to put them all in. The problem I see is crewed MGs that are part of the vehicle, does this then mean they can be shot back at too? When we first played we tried something similar and the Hanomags gunner dies on turn 1/2 making it almost useless for the rest of the game.
The problem we still have not solved is when vehicles like the universal carrier are being used when the passengers are reletively easy to be seen and cannot shoot or be shot at - I've not found a neat compromise for this yet.
The problem we still have not solved is when vehicles like the universal carrier are being used when the passengers are reletively easy to be seen and cannot shoot or be shot at - I've not found a neat compromise for this yet.
Rabidchild
Mongoose
Great question. The rules don't say.tneva82 said:
