Passenger Staterooms: Single Travellers vs Couples

[Terry Mixon]

There has been a lot of discussion about staterooms and one of the things that stuck out to me while I was designing a luxury liner is that the rules say single occupancy staterooms are the rule except for exploration ships, company ships, and the military.

That’s interesting to me because I was curious enough to look up how many people that take cruises are single vs being part of a couple. The answer was pretty lopsided here on Earth with only about 5% of people on a cruise being single and traveling alone.

I’m inclined to say things would likely be similar on the spaceways of Charted Space.

What do you think? Would couples go double occupancy middle or one step up to get more space with a double occupancy high stateroom? I’m sure some brave souls would pinch centicredits and go with a middle double.

How would lines handle this? A two jump middle double is KCr30 and a high double is twice that at KCr60. Psychology will play a roll but I suspect must people would go cheap and spend time out of the cabin.

In any case, single occupancy might be what the rules specify as what passengers want (and I suppose a couple could take two middle singles) but that seems unlikely.

How do you all see this playing out?

 

[Condottiere]

 

[Terry Mixon]

So, wet bars are in.

 

[MasterGwydion]

There has been a lot of discussion about staterooms and one of the things that stuck out to me while I was designing a luxury liner is that the rules say single occupancy staterooms are the rule except for exploration ships, company ships, and the military.

That’s interesting to me because I was curious enough to look up how many people that take cruises are single vs being part of a couple. The answer was pretty lopsided here on Earth with only about 5% of people on a cruise being single and traveling alone.

I’m inclined to say things would likely be similar on the spaceways of Charted Space.

What do you think? Would couples go double occupancy middle or one step up to get more space with a double occupancy high stateroom? I’m sure some brave souls would pinch centicredits and go with a middle double.

How would lines handle this? A two jump middle double is KCr30 and a high double is twice that at KCr60. Psychology will play a roll but I suspect must people would go cheap and spend time out of the cabin.

In any case, single occupancy might be what the rules specify as what passengers want (and I suppose a couple could take two middle singles) but that seems unlikely.

How do you all see this playing out?

The Earth Analog may not work very well. Most cruises on Earth are a week or less. An average cruise ship is between 60-80% of its volume for passenger quarters and common areas. People are paying an average of $1,500 per week of travel with an average of $700 in incidentals and port calls for the week. Traveller ships do not stop. There are no sights to see. It is a week of jumpspace. A week in jumpspace in Traveller costs 6,500Cr for an average stateroom. On Earth cruise travelers go to see the sights. I live in a cruise ship destination. Our island increases its population by 20% every cruise ship day. There are no sights to see in jumpspace, so those won't be the type of people who will buy tickets. Even a SOC 12 person only spends 5,000Cr per month on living expenses. So, the cost of one J-1 Middle Stateroom ticket costs 1,500Cr more than the Baron spends on himself in a month. That means that only the very wealthy travel, which is not represented very well in the rules or the setting.

A Middle Passage is supposed to be for SOC 4-7. Those people spend between 800Cr and 1,500Cr each month on living costs. If you only can afford 800Cr a month to pay for your food and lodging, then a Middle Passage is more than 8 months of living expenses. If you can afford only 1,500Cr a month to pay for your food and lodging, then a Middle Passage is 4 months of living expenses. Remember, this is also only for Jump-1. It gets worse the farther you go.

So, my point is that the type of passengers the book tells you that you should get, do not line up with who the costs tell you that you will actually get. So, as much as I love interesting explorations of the setting, I think this one is doomed to never make sense.

 

[boggo2300]

surely it depends on the available Cr. the passengers have as to what level of accomodation they purchase. don't forget these rules are for travel passage rather than cruises, cruises you tend to take with your family, travelling for work, as an example, most of the time you are travelling alone.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Yeah, I’m talking liners specifically rather than just passage. The rules limiting income are silly. Charted Space has some (probably a lot of) wealthy people.

In my mind, those amounts a SOC 12 person spends is a minimum, not a maximum. I haven’t looked at the rule itself, but arbitrary caps are stupid.

As Singularity talks about, the liner there is an experience in and of itself and the rich meet others if their class. Also, while there are no stops in jump space, there can be excursions at each system, depending on what is there.

The rules are good for regular passage, but there needs to be more and different rules for liners, particularly ones on an established route.

 

[Terry Mixon]

The Earth Analog may not work very well. Most cruises on Earth are a week or less. An average cruise ship is between 60-80% of its volume for passenger quarters and common areas. People are paying an average of $1,500 per week of travel with an average of $700 in incidentals and port calls for the week. Traveller ships do not stop. There are no sights to see. It is a week of jumpspace. A week in jumpspace in Traveller costs 6,500Cr for an average stateroom. On Earth cruise travelers go to see the sights. I live in a cruise ship destination. Our island increases its population by 20% every cruise ship day. There are no sights to see in jumpspace, so those won't be the type of people who will buy tickets. Even a SOC 12 person only spends 5,000Cr per month on living expenses. So, the cost of one J-1 Middle Stateroom ticket costs 1,500Cr more than the Baron spends on himself in a month. That means that only the very wealthy travel, which is not represented very well in the rules or the setting.

A Middle Passage is supposed to be for SOC 4-7. Those people spend between 800Cr and 1,500Cr each month on living costs. If you only can afford 800Cr a month to pay for your food and lodging, then a Middle Passage is more than 8 months of living expenses. If you can afford only 1,500Cr a month to pay for your food and lodging, then a Middle Passage is 4 months of living expenses. Remember, this is also only for Jump-1. It gets worse the farther you go.

So, my point is that the type of passengers the book tells you that you should get, do not line up with who the costs tell you that you will actually get. So, as much as I love interesting explorations of the setting, I think this one is doomed to never make sense.

Just checked the standards of living. That KCr5 for the Baron is a minimum per month, not a maximum. The sky is the limit.

 

[boggo2300]

Yeah, I’m talking liners specifically rather than just passage. The rules limiting income are silly. Charted Space has some (probably a lot of) wealthy people.

In my mind, those amounts a SOC 12 person spends is a minimum, not a maximum. I haven’t looked at the rule itself, but arbitrary caps are stupid.

As Singularity talks about, the liner there is an experience in and of itself and the rich meet others if their class. Also, while there are no stops in jump space, there can be excursions at each system, depending on what is there.

The rules are good for regular passage, but there needs to be more and different rules for liners, particularly ones on an established route.

honestly it seems like way too much of an edge case to deserve rules, I'd just come up with something if it ever comes up (which is unlikely, not the sort of game I'd be interested in)

 

[Terry Mixon]

honestly it seems like way too much of an edge case to deserve rules, I'd just come up with something if it ever comes up (which is unlikely, not the sort of game I'd be interested in)

I’m going to run the Singularity Campaign once the Kickstarter backers get it in about 3 weeks. It may have more detailed rules but I’m thinking on that as Act 1 is being crew on a ritzy liner. Not so edge case if a lot of people want to do something similar.

 

[Condottiere]

If you tell me a jump drive costs one and half megastarbux per tonne, okay, since I have no way to compare this with anything exsting.

With staterooms, the only that counts is life support.

 

[Terry Mixon]

If you tell me a jump drive costs one and half megastarbux per tonne, okay, since I have no way to compare this with anything exsting.

With staterooms, the only that counts is life support.

Are we back to this again? I’m not talking about how much it costs to run. I accept that is a mare’s nest. This is about people and their habits.

Would more couples travel a liner or singles? No need to ponder life support, just bunk space and willingness. Do more couples go on a cruise in Traveller or singles trying to hook up?

 

[boggo2300]

A liner I'd suggest singles

A CRUISE i'd suggest doubles

A liner is transport
A cruise is a vacation

 

[Terry Mixon]

A liner I'd suggest singles

A CRUISE i'd suggest doubles

A liner is transport
A cruise is a vacation

They would use the same kind of vessel, so while I see the distinction you’re making, that isn’t how the liner is being portrayed.

For a lower end liner, it probably is business and mostly single. For the upper end, the reverse. And then there will be large ships that cater to both customer segments.

I’m specifically looking at the upper end, and couples would be my expectation there like you said.

 

[Condottiere]

If you can make more money from shipping cargo, who'd operate a passenger line?

The cost of passage has to be attractive enough, that starship owners invest in (extra) staterooms.

If the cost of passage is extraordinary, passengers will expect facilities to reflect that extraordinary cost.

Of course, if the reason for travelling are circumstances beyond voluntary, such as business trips, it depends on who's actually paying.

One of the things that matter on spacecraft is volume, especially for starships.

How much volume can you get away with, for minimal customer satisfaction?

You could do salami slicing, in that for added features, like gym access, the passenger has to pay extra, as opposed being an attraction.

And within the Imperium, there probably are regulations and standards, to ensure that passengers aren't at risk, or getting ripped off, too much.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Yeah, I’m talking liners specifically rather than just passage. The rules limiting income are silly. Charted Space has some (probably a lot of) wealthy people.

Tickets for a cruise-style liner will be more expensive.

In my mind, those amounts a SOC 12 person spends is a minimum, not a maximum. I haven’t looked at the rule itself, but arbitrary caps are stupid.

It is a minimum, but if you are not rich, that is probably the most you can afford, not the least. Just enough to stay in your socio-economic bracket.

As Singularity talks about, the liner there is an experience in and of itself and the rich meet others if their class. Also, while there are no stops in jump space, there can be excursions at each system, depending on what is there.

Right, so this is only something for the rich. That means that there are no Middle Staterooms, except those used by the crew. You are looking at people around SOC 10+ since they can apparently afford to be away from their worlds and their lives for a minimum of 3 weeks and paying at minimum 81KCr for 2 people traveling together. (I charged the 2nd person 50% since they are going double occupancy and doubled the cost of both tickets since it is a cruise liner and not a passenger liner. 3 weeks at double the cost of 3 J-1s.) My numbers aren't hard numbers, but they should be in the ballpark of what would be charged for such a trip. Any couple spending 81KCr for a 3-week jaunt are the very wealthy. No one else.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Tickets for a cruise-style liner will be more expensive.

It is a minimum, but if you are not rich, that is probably the most you can afford, not the least. Just enough to stay in your socio-economic bracket.

Right, so this is only something for the rich. That means that there are no Middle Staterooms, except those used by the crew. You are looking at people around SOC 10+ since they can apparently afford to be away from their worlds and their lives for a minimum of 3 weeks and paying at minimum 81KCr for 2 people traveling together. (I charged the 2nd person 50% since they are going double occupancy and doubled the cost of both tickets since it is a cruise liner and not a passenger liner. 3 weeks at double the cost of 3 J-1s.) My numbers aren't hard numbers, but they should be in the ballpark of what would be charged for such a trip. Any couple spending 81KCr for a 3-week jaunt are the very wealthy. No one else.

The Singularity sample pdf has updated high and luxury prices, as well as recruitment data for luxury passengers.

 

[boggo2300]

What killed Liner travel here was Air-Travel, to survive, the Liner companies re-invented themselves as cruise liners, as a way to keep themselves afloat (pardon the pun) that obviously hasn't happened in Charted Space, so Liner travel is still the only real way to get passengers between systems, and I think 90% of all passenger travel is going to be either liner, or tramp passage. That's not to say cruise ships won't exist, and I think MG's estimate above is pretty accurate. So while I agree there will be cruise lines I think they will largely be the preserve of the almost super rich (the real super rich will of course use personal yachts)

 

[rinku]

There's grades of rich.

Honestly, a High Passage or two is not beyond the means of most people... but that's only going to apply for nearby worlds. Cluster tourism is likely to develop, but it takes a lot for some chap from Regina or Rhylanor to see the delights of Glisten, and then get home.

But then, some people happen to have a lot.

 

[MasterGwydion]

What killed Liner travel here was Air-Travel, to survive, the Liner companies re-invented themselves as cruise liners, as a way to keep themselves afloat (pardon the pun) that obviously hasn't happened in Charted Space, so Liner travel is still the only real way to get passengers between systems, and I think 90% of all passenger travel is going to be either liner, or tramp passage. That's not to say cruise ships won't exist, and I think MG's estimate above is pretty accurate. So while I agree there will be cruise lines I think they will largely be the preserve of the almost super rich (the real super rich will of course use personal yachts)

@Terry Mixon will probably be able to say better than I, but I just haven't been able to make them profitable. At least not profitable enough to pay for themselves before the mortgage is paid off. The rates I used were higher than the published rates in @Terry Mixon 's post above, so using those rates, it will be even harder to turn a profit.

 

[rinku]

Hmmm. But aren't liners normally subsidised?

Maybe you're trying to make a small business model work for a big business or government situation?

What if there is no mortgage, just outright purchase and tax breaks?

Because Oberlindes IS its own bank...