P&P playtest rules - Raiders (yarr!)

locarno24

Cosmic Mongoose
Well, for starters, I hadn't registered the lack of jump pointon the strike carrier in the new edition. Just goes to show. Especially since the one time you see the thing, just about all it does is jump in and out.



That said, the custom ship enhancements are very nice. I can see a number of combinations without thinking that would be very beneficial (modified freighters with afterburners and interceptor grid as a blockade runner, for example).

Obviously the weapons benefit the strike carrier and modified freighter (missiles! something with some range! Yarrrr!) more than the battlewagon and dreadnought, but then things like the heavy armour is amusing for the dreadnought (at a cost of being speed 3!).

In fact, heavy armour and expanded hull on a dreadnought produces a proper brick outhouse of a ship. 72 damage and 102 crew protected by hull 6 is comparable to a Bin'Tak class dreadnought - except that you have interceptors 4 on top. I worry, in fact, if that's a fraction too tough.




The battlewagon benefits a bit from Track that Target!, giving it occasional 1-dice heavy laser shots, and you have the option of twin-linking up the pulse cannon.


Probably the thing I'm most glad to see is the essentially free upgrade from Deltas to Delta-2's. I suspect that that'll almost be the standard first choice for the Strike Carrier unless you're using it for some specialist role (with a Boarding Party and Afterburners it's not a bad light planetary assault ship, and with 2 fighters starting deployed thanks to Fleet Carrier it can afford to give up Carrier 4).

I have to say I think this is a fantastic change. None of the upgrades look entirely useless, but none are too bad (except possibly the flying bunker, noted above), and it makes the raider fleet the most varied out there. I look forward to having a try with the new fleet.



Err....Let me just make one comment. Not entirely convinced that salvaged/allied ships should get these options. Raider-built ships are underpowered and deliberately so, so won't get too bad by a free boost. Most of them are slow enough, for example, that a -1 speed for heavy armour is a big deal.

The league of Non-aligned worlds, by comparison, has some extremely nasty warships and making them better for free is not on. Taking the 'flying tank' combination on league ships, by comparison, is rather dirty, especially those who are intended to be fairly fragile. For Example:

A firehawk ends up with 33 hit points and 38 crew - better than a nova dreadnought - and can easily afford to sacrifice a point of speed (especially when operating with battlewagons!)

How about a hull 6, 40 hit point, 48 crew vree saucer at raid priority? It's still speed 7.....

A salvaged milani carrier with extra hangar and advanced fighters goes from 4 flights of Kothas (which most people don't always even bother to launch) to 5 flights of Delta-Vs, which are pretty competent fighters.

Twin-linking a pulse cannon is fine (Advanced Targeting). Twin linking a Super armour-piercing, double damage antimatter weapon (Xill) or a missile rack (Darkhawk) is not fine. Especially since the latter will also be packing two more missile rails than normal at medium range.

How about a Brivoki with a 20% increase in durability and command +1?
 
this was one point i did bring up, that allied league ships shouldnt get it.

on the nova dreadnought, i have no problem with it being a brick as speed 3 as its not the best armed ship at battle level so being tougher is fine.
 
Hang on a minute... when it says you may take 1 or 2 upgrades... why would you choose to only have 1?!

Sunhawk with a missile system and hull +1, for a patrol point. Ouch.
 
Sunhawk with a missile system and hull +1, for a patrol point. Ouch.

Kind of my point.

76 hit, 81 crew hull 6 Batrado. With Manouvre to Shield Them! back in the game.

Claweagle with 5 troops and afterburners.

I suspect we can keep this going for a while.



Hang on a minute... when it says you may take 1 or 2 upgrades... why would you choose to only have 1?!

Given this list, you wouldn't. Because if nothing else interested you, you'd take the missiles and the 20% hull boost since there's no associated disadvantage.

+1 armour -1 speed, or +2 troops +2 shuttles loose a trait, are fine in that you might well choose not to take them since there's an associated penalty. But enough of them are 'free' that you'd always find something that you wanted....

As I said, for the normal raider ships I'm not complaining. A Strike Carrier is under-equipped enough anyway that a freebie isn't going to break it. It's when you start applying freebies to ships out of the league fleets that were good, verging on broken, to start with that it's unacceptible.
 
Yeah the "lose a trait" or "lose an AD" are not really major disadvantages for many ships. There are plenty of trait sinks (AJE or flight computer spring to mind) and weapons that you won't mind losing an AD (rear etc).
 
Very much so. And very flexible. With two choices from eleven upgrades, there are now 122 variants of the strike carrier, modified freighter and dreadnought, and 101 variants of the battlewagon.

Some people, me included, complained a while back about not having enough ships in the raider fleet without having to default to allies. I think 463 types of ship qualifies as 'tolerable'.

If the planets ever align correctly and I actually get to go to a tournament or campaign weekend, I look forward to being able to take raiders without automatically qualifying as 'free target practice'....
 
locarno24 said:
I look forward to being able to take raiders without automatically qualifying as 'free target practice'....
We would never, ever refer to a raiders player like that!

The correct term is Tournament Piñata ;)
 
I think my main complaint with the raiders is still that Double-Vs still can't be carried (despite fluff to the contrary). Seeing as you get the same number per Patrol point as with V2s, maybe it would be good make make them upgrades in the same way?
At least is won't be as bad now as it was with the old fighter VP rules...
 
So do players see the Raiders allies' ships gaining the bonuses as being overpowered and should the rule be limited to Raiders ships only?
 
I certainly do.

Raider ships are not exactly useless but they're about 80% of what you'd expect of a ship at their priority level, and these neatly bring them back up to snuff.



Over time, patching and modifying means that just about any heavy capital ship the raiders buy or salvage will probably gradually turn into another battlewagon or dreadnought.....but whilst they've got an actual military ship they won't want to try and refit it if they can avoid it because a junkyard drydock is not going to be able to modify a front-line warship in any way that improves it without severe penalties elsewhere.


Allied ships should only get access to modifications if you're a lot, lot stricter about there being a clear disadvantage paired with the advantage, and even then, the sheer number and variety of league hulls means that there will be some combination you can abuse.
Personally, I'd say it's simpler just to limit the ability to the raider-built ships.
 
Triggy said:
So do players see the Raiders allies' ships gaining the bonuses as being overpowered and should the rule be limited to Raiders ships only?
I was thinkin the same thing, Allies ships are generally better .
Haven't played raiders yet, they need a paint job first. So it's just my intial thoughts.
 
Triggy said:
So do players see the Raiders allies' ships gaining the bonuses as being overpowered and should the rule be limited to Raiders ships only?
Yes definitely. The allies ships should already be balanced for their PL.
 
I agree with the add ons only to Raiders

Also / instead give them a generic Patrol, Skirmish and Raid lvl hull to build things
 
Hmmm.....quick look over the raiders.
5 point raid-priority fleet as a talking point.


Point 1:
Battlewagon with expanded hull and enhanced bridge.

Speed:
6
Weapons:
3 AD Medium Laser, 10 AD Pulse Cannon, 6 AD Particle Array
Fighters:
3 Flights Delta-Vs
Durability:
Anti-fighter 2, Interceptors 2, Hull 6, Damage & Crew 42/48
Other:
Command +1

Quite nice for a raid-level flagship. Firepower may not be great but it's not far short of EA battleships in durability. +1 initiative won't sweep the board but against EA, league and similar it's going to even things up.


Point 2

Battlewagon with enhanced targeting and missile battery

Speed:
6
Weapons:
3 AD Medium Laser, 10 AD Twin-linked Pulse Cannon, 2 AD Twin-Linked Missiles, 6 AD Particle Array
Fighters:
3 Flights Delta-Vs
Durability:
Anti-fighter 2, Interceptors 2, Hull 6, Damage & Crew 35/40

A decent fighty ship. Well armed enough to make a mess of anything with armour 5+ or less that it catches. Missiles are a bit of a waste on bigger ships, though. Expanded hull might be better.


Thought - I was initially trying to avoid duplicating upgrades (thought - given that these are refits and jerry-rigging, not proper classes of ship, should that be encouraged, or even compelled, by disallowing the same combination of upgrades on two ships of the same class?)



Point 3

2 Strike Carriers with advanced fighters and extra hangars

Speed:
6
Weapons:
8 AD Pulse Cannon, 4 AD Pulse Cannon, 4 AD Pulse Cannon
Fighters:
5 Flights Delta-V2s, Carrier 4, Fleet Carrier
Durability:
Anti-fighter 2, Hull 4, Damage & Crew 32/54

A classic carrier, pretty decent ship for the size - Fleet carrier support makes the Delta-Vs tolerable and the V2s actually not bad. Likely to get shredded if someone points a plasma accelerator at it, but they it should be hiding at the back and not getting involved....

Point 4

Strike Carrier with interceptor grid and point defense system

Speed:
6
Weapons:
6 AD Pulse Cannon, 4 AD Pulse Cannon, 4 AD Pulse Cannon
Fighters:
4 Flights Delta-V2s, Carrier 4, Fleet Carrier
Durability:
Anti-fighter 4, Interceptors 2, Hull 4, Damage & Crew 32/54
Other:
Escort

Some flak protection for the fleet, and a fleet carrier that I can field closer to the fight without so much risk.


2 Modified Freighters with heavy armour and interceptor grids

Speed:
5
Weapons:
6 AD Plasma Cannon, 5 AD Plasma Cannon, 2 AD Plasma Cannon
Fighters:
1 Flight Delta-Vs
Durability:
Anti-fighter 1, Interceptors 2 Hull 6, Damage & Crew 12/12

ok....these things are really quite nasty for patrol ships. 2 Interceptors and hull 6 make them nearly impossible to touch without beam weapons unless you concentrate a lot of fire on them. 8 AD of AP plasma cannons isn't that scary, but they are going to be hard to stop!


Point 5

1 Strike Carrier with enhanced targeting and missile rack

Speed:
6
Weapons:
8 AD Twin-linked Pulse Cannon, 4 AD Twin-linked Pulse Cannon, 4 AD Twin-linked Pulse Cannon, 2 AD Twin-linked Missile Rack
Fighters:
4 Flights Delta-Vs, Carrier 4, Fleet Carrier
Durability:
Anti-fighter 2, Hull 4, Damage & Crew 32/54

2 Modified Freighters with enhanced targeting and missile racks

Speed:
6
Weapons:
6 AD Twin-linked Plasma Cannon, 6 AD Twin-linked Plasma Cannon, 2 Twin-linked AD Plasma Cannon, 2 AD Twin-linked Missile rack
Fighters:
1 Flight Delta-Vs
Durability:
Anti-fighter 1, Hull 5, Damage & Crew 12/12

Basically a support squadron. 6 missile racks isn't that special (certainly not compared to a saggitarius) but there's plenty of chaff delta-v fighters and they are twin-linked. For that matter the group has quite a bit of firepower up close if it needs it.
 
I'd pull some of the non-Pak'ma'ra vessels out their list and use them in the raiders (with perhaps a different weapons loadout). Clearly these hulls are available to purchase on the open market and thus would definitely be available on the black market, so I'd imagine that the raiders would have no problem picking them up.

Specifically, I'm thinking of:

Patrol: Sunhawk
Skirmish: Ikorta
Raid:Halik

They would need different weapons loadouts of course, and if they can be customized those loadouts would need to be below par when compared to the original hulls.

Regards,

Dave
 
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