Ok, strange question. . . .

[lastbesthope]

The reason being that by allowing all guns to fire in a vacuum without err then what is the benefit/purpose of accelerator rifles and snub pistols?

Firing a gun in zero-G or low-G environment will throw the character off balance/course. It will take him several rounds to stabilize again. That's where the accelerator rifles come in.

The effect on the firer won't be as much as you'd think unless you have a really big bullet at massive velocities, remember very basic physics:

Mass(Shooter+Gun, etc)*delta_V=Mass(Bullet)*Velocity(Bullet)

A person weighs a LOT more than a bullet. So the velocity difference won't have a very large magnitude for a normal gun. You would still need to brace against it or correct after the fact though, you won't stay still.

LBH

 

[klingsor]

Not just the bullet of course but the gas as well, in fact is is probably more of a problem. Fast gas = low tech thrusters.

 

[Zemekis]

When looking at trade – most goods would require pressurized containers at the very least to survive a vacuum (partial atmo would be ok).

I beg to differ. Some do require pressurized containers, e.g. food, medical supplies, pharmaceuticals, live animals, biochemicals, and all machine parts with lubricants that can't do in vacuum but besides that, there is no need for a pressurized container for electronics, machine parts with vacuum-proof lubricants, raw materials, manufactured goods, ore, weapons (save the lubricants stuff), gems, cybernetics (again, lubricants), metals, radioactives, etc.

I also don't think that ammo will fall apart in hard vacuum, i.e. lose its agents. Why should it? The gunpowder is compacted not pressurized. What physical force will take the powder out the round?
Either the round was not pressurized in which case the is nothing to decompress and the materials stay where they are (assuming the gun has been taken out the airlock and underwent a proper decompression like everything else), or the round is in deed pressurized in which case it can easily handle 1 bar difference in pressure.

The effect on the firer won't be as much as you'd think unless you have a really big bullet at massive velocities, remember very basic physics:

Mass(Shooter+Gun, etc)*delta_V=Mass(Bullet)*Velocity(Bullet)

A person weighs a LOT more than a bullet. So the velocity difference won't have a very large magnitude for a normal gun. You would still need to brace against it or correct after the fact though, you won't stay still.

In a zero-G environment a gentle tip on your shoulder can set you uncontrollably adrift, so imagine what a revolver can do.
If you have magnetized your boots, fine. However, if you hold on to nothing, kiss your current position good bye.

We should send a request to NASA to verify our various points of view.

I like Woas' idea about the heatsink clips. Here's a little improvement. Instead of putting the paste on your gun, you can have a hard casing filled with gel as a clip. The gel changes color as it takes on heat so you can see when to change the clip. You also don't need to bother with lubricants. The gel will take care of that.

 

[zozotroll]

What makes you think a gentle tap will send you off course? Mass is still mass. You still need just as much force to move the mass itself, you just dont need to overcome the friction of things like feet on the ground.

If a pistol or rifle is going to spin you in space, it certainly will flip you on a planet. You are not a ridged bar of iron. Some motion will be added, but if you have much experience in micro-g, that should be no problem. Of course if you are a complete newbie, you have lots of problems, not just a little recoil.

As for the mass of the gas, the propellent masses a lot less than the projectile, so while it has to be accounted for, it doesnt change the basic ratio between man and bullet.

 

[Woas]

If we are to trust the website I referenced earlier, then firing a .45 cal automatic pistol (what they use in the example on the website) in zero-G will receive a 'spin' of less than 3 deg/s which I think, just picturing that in my head does not seem too debilitating. And that is assumed you aren't braced on or against something.

 

[BP]

When looking at trade – most goods would require pressurized containers at the very least to survive a vacuum (partial atmo would be ok).

I beg to differ. Some do require pressurized containers, e.g. food, medical supplies, pharmaceuticals, live animals, biochemicals, and all machine parts with lubricants that can't do in vacuum but besides that, there is, machine parts with vacuum-proof lubricants, raw materials, manufactured goods, ore, weapons (save the lubricants stuff), gems, cybernetics (again, lubricants), metals, radioactives, etc.
..

Sorry – when I stated goods that excludes raw materials (ore, metals, gems) – and I can definitively say the ‘no need for a pressurized container for electronics’ is incorrect – my father fabs electronics for hard vacuum (ESA and NASA probes – such as Cassini, Rosetta, New Horizon, IBEX, Deep Impact, and many more). And he also heads a vacuum lab and would love some of that vacuum proof lubricant (recently sent linear motor system back to Germany because they lubricated it and polluted one of his chambers)

Also cybernetics probably qualify as electronic… Not to say future tech wouldn’t overcome these – just saying the motivation to do so is probably not there for the bulk of things!

I also don't think that ammo will fall apart in hard vacuum, i.e. lose its agents. Why should it? The gunpowder is compacted not pressurized. What physical force will take the powder out the round?

Vacuum may unseat the bullets or primers – again hard vacuum results in outgassing = all materials, even metals absorb atmospheric gases – unless released slowly, they will try to explosively leave materials. For metals this is often not a serious problem – though vacuum welding can occur. For the powders in bullets and the disparate metals this may result in a failure of the seals. (I think hunters have even had problems with ‘vacuum sealed’ bullets – note that while a gun can be fired underwater, exposure to moisture is still a problem.)

Bear in mind I am talking about hard vacuum here – not partial atmo like in a plane which is nothing compared to even near space vacuum.

In a zero-G environment a gentle tip on your shoulder can set you uncontrollably adrift, so imagine what a revolver can do.

Nix the uncontrollably - more effective than here on earth, but still relative. The point is that you will not cease even the small motion imparted by the ‘tip’ till you actively apply an opposing force in the correct vector (and don’t neglect friction here and the fact that without gravity, friction is less effective as things tend to bounce/float away from each other and not maintain contact – resulting in loss of friction effects).

Your point is relevant though, as a bullet firing is not a gentle tip. Its mass may be relatively tiny, but the propulsive force is great. At the very least, discharging a firearm in zero-G is likely put a nice spin on a fella.

We should send a request to NASA to verify our various points of view.

My dad might be the one who’d end up fab-ing the sensors – I could ask him to put a bullet in one of his chambers, but I wouldn’t hold my breathe on that one (it takes many hours to bring a chamber down to hard vac and back) :roll:

 

[Zemekis]

Ok, let me clarify my "uncontrollably adrift" statement. It doesn't mean you are flying around Hollywood-style to the back of your ship. I rather meant that without hanging on to something, a shot will give you an impulse of about one or two inches per second. And since you hardly fire at the exact center of you body mass you will start to spin. Slowly at first, I give you that but even if you rotate slowly afte a few seconds you will have your feet facing your opponent, then your back, then your head and finally your front again. All provided there is nothing which can stop you from doing so. As I said before, if you have magnetized your boots or are holding on to something otherwise, you are ok.

And it is rather rare that you only fire once in combat. If you have set your weapon to burst or auto, you will definitely be set adrift.

 

[BP]

This topic was on discharging a firearm in a vacuum (I think :lol: ) - but the zero-G thread gets me wondering...

Does any canon cover the affect of a ship's artificial gravity when one is just outside the hull?

 

[drnuncheon]

And since you hardly fire at the exact center of you body mass you will start to spin. Slowly at first, I give you that but even if you rotate slowly afte a few seconds you will have your feet facing your opponent, then your back, then your head and finally your front again.

If you're in zero-G, why are you standing perpendicular to your opponent?

Remember, the enemy's gate is down.

 

[BP]

AntiGrav would have to fall off much closer than r^2 - well likely the artificial mass 'M' would taper to nothing in a restricted range.

Hmm .. think its time for a new topic...

 

[Dave Chase]

This topic was on discharging a firearm in a vacuum (I think :lol: ) - but the zero-G thread gets me wondering...

Does any canon cover the affect of a ship's artificial gravity when one is just outside the hull?

AHL has rules for ZeroG but not outside of the ship.

AHL=Azhanti High Lightning

Dave Chase

 

[BP]

Never got AHL - does it add any details on artificial gravity?

 

[klingsor]

I believe the artificial gravity is quite specifically tied to 'grav plates' or whatever they are called. I think these may be paired - so there is artificial gravity between them but not beyond. I think this comes from earlier posts on this and other Traveller lists and possibly some of the older hardware books. Certainly it seems a neat and attractive solution. If this or something like it is the case then the hull - and possibly some less frequented spaces within it [1] is in microgravity.

As to cartridges I believe the water resistance of even modern cartridges though good is not guaranteed which suggests that they are not vacuum resistant. The problem there is that the propellent will then lose its volatiles and thus its effectiveness though this would probably not be instantaneous.



Notes
1. Which does suggest the idea of slackers having a secret nest in a crawl space. What could they be doing in microgravity?

 

[kristof65]

As tech levels go up, the materials and components in the weapons become more capable. By the time you reach Imperium level reproductions (TL11+) it's very unlikely that they won't function properly in a vacuum.

Assuredly, but the post seemed to be about firearms – specifically ballistic – I think everyone assumes lasers work in space (I assume the assumption <grin>). Lasers start at Tech-8 in CT. A Tech-11 rifle might be designed for vacuum, but at that tech level may be unusual (and still basically reflect Tech-6 mentality – i.e. not designed for space combat).

That's a very important point. Why design chemical propellant driven firearms to work in a vacuum when technology has several other solutions that are probably more reliable in a vacuum? Lasers, Gauss weapons, etc.

I think, for the most part, that any discussion of chemical propellant driven firearms in the OTU at least, one can probably assume that using such in a vacuum is a tactic of circumstances, rather than an everyday occasion. As such, most firearms won't be designed for use in vacuum, simply because there is no real need to.

They may work better in vacuum because of other design factors, frex, a cheap, easily manufactured super-lubricant that doesn't freeze up in vacuum may wind up being used in all sorts of applications including firearms. Or their barrels might wind up being built with a metal originally developed for use in hull materials, etc.

 

[Dave Chase]

Never got AHL - does it add any details on artificial gravity?

Not in the sense that I think you are looking for.

AHL is combat game of miniatures(counters) and the AHL ship.

The rules covers for when the Gravity plates fail and how it effects movement and combat.

If you would like to know more ask

Dave Chase

 

[Dave Chase]

OH, BP, I forgot that Beltstrike (CT) does have some extra stuff/rules on ZeroG and Low Gravity that take place outside of a ship.

Here is the intro to that section. If it helps any.

BeltStrike (CT)
Page 6

Zero Gravity
Asteroid prospecting and mining is an8 of the few jobs where
extensive work must be performed in zero-G conditions. In an age
of artificial gravity and other high-tech envirmmsnte! manipuIation,
?ha belter must cope with the same unique conditions which camplicated
the earliest ventures into space. A highly specialized set
of reactions must be carefully learned in order to accomplish the
most basic tasks of movement, combat, and other activities undertaken
in the absence of gravity.
The Trwalhr rules do not deal with these special circumstances
to any great extent. To incorporate thia aspect of a belter's life,
the following rules are presented.

Dave Chase

 

[BP]

Thanks Dave!

The Traveller rules do not deal with these special circumstances
to any great extent.

This is what I've gathered - so I've allocated some mental energy (from me meger stores) to knock up my own mechanix. I want something playable and 'suspension of disbelief' acceptable. When done I'll bounce it off the community to see what sticks (and what stinks)..

You also helped me re my next MGT purchase - though I'm still waiting for my first 2 books to arrive (mistook USPS for UPS - where I am their motto is - neither rain, nor snow, sleet nor shine your delivery will be just as slow!)